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    Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post

    The British people didn’t vote for Brexit because of Troll farms or red buses or Farage’s poster, they voted for it because of immigration. It isn’t palatable to acknowledge that half a century of pretending everyone is tolerant etc has failed miserably and that the UK is nearly as xenophobic now as it was when Powell talked of rivers of blood. Consequently, they pretend that the massive majority of people in England, outside of London, didn’t vote to cut off their noses to spite their faces because they don’t like having Polish people in the country, but they only did it, the poor dears, because they were deceived by the snake oil salesmen BJ and JRM. It is complete and utter rubbish.

    They were influenced by the bus, the trolls etc though. Massively.

    And immigration is always a canard. Non EU migration has always been higher than EU migration.

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      Originally posted by Piquet View Post
      I still don't understand the objections that the DUP and the ERG have to the Backstop.

      The Backstop will only come into play, if there is no other way to guarantee a "Frictionless Border"

      Boris and Jacob and their cronies have been saying all along that there is a rake of ways to guarantee this "Frictionless Border"

      So what's their problem?
      Because Boris and Jacob were lieing about this and everything else and everyone knew it?

      Comment


        Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post

        The British people didn’t vote for Brexit because of Troll farms or red buses or Farage’s poster, they voted for it because of immigration. It isn’t palatable to acknowledge that half a century of pretending everyone is tolerant etc has failed miserably and that the UK is nearly as xenophobic now as it was when Powell talked of rivers of blood. Consequently, they pretend that the massive majority of people in England, outside of London, didn’t vote to cut off their noses to spite their faces because they don’t like having Polish people in the country, but they only did it, the poor dears, because they were deceived by the snake oil salesmen BJ and JRM. It is complete and utter rubbish.
        No vote in which the margin is as low as a 2% swing can be ascribed to any single cause. All of the factors you list (xenophobia included) had a material impact.

        And I think it's a mistake to underestimate the work that troll farms have done in making anti-immigrant rhetoric more publicly palatable.
        "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

        "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


        "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

        Comment


          Originally posted by fitzy73 View Post


          They were influenced by the bus, the trolls etc though. Massively.

          And immigration is always a canard. Non EU migration has always been higher than EU migration.
          As I keep repeating, immigrants into the UK from the EU are not required to register until they have been here for six months. As my Polish friend told me, many of his compatriots do not wish to be registered so come and go within six months. Consequently the immigration figures are a complete nonsense. Personally I could not care less than there are hundreds of thousands more EU migrants in the UK than the official figures, but there simply are and it is a Pole who told me how it works, who has no axe to grind whatsoever. But most importantly a massive number of British people do not believe any of the immigration statistics that the government use, I certainly don’t but I am unusual in that I don’t care, indeed, I would prefer more immigrants and fewer Brits most of the time...
          Last edited by the plastic paddy; 13th-March-2019, 12:03.

          Comment


            Marina Hyde knocks it out of the park, as she so often does.

            With Theresa’s ‘turd’ deal flushed away, pray for an EU invasion

            “It … sends a message … to the whole world,” croaked Theresa May to the Commons on Tuesday night, “about the sort of country … the United Kingdom will be … in the years and decades ahead.”

            Fairly sure the world has got the message by now. They are “up to speed” and “across the detail” of the sort of country the UK is. The question of whether Brexit represented a midlife crisis or the descent into senility appears to have been answered. The land that likes to picture itself as a David Niven world war two movie is in fact a look-away episode of The Jeremy Kyle Show. On close inspection, the “beacon of democracy” turns out to be a bin fire.

            By now, you will be aware that the prime minister failed to end her meaningful vote hoodoo, with this sequel to her last attempt – 2Meaningful 2Vote – knocked down by a margin of 149. Amusingly, some are suggesting that Meaningful Vote: Tokyo Drift could yet happen. A free vote on no deal takes place tonight, with potential amendments piling up. May herself ploughs on. It’s as if someone has popped a grey wig on Munch’s The Scream, then cast it an ITV drama about the female governor of a category-A prison.

            Quote of the debate – arguably quote of the entire Brexit – went to a Conservative backbencher by the name of Steve Double. “This is a turd of a deal,” he intoned to the House of Commons, “which has now been taken away and polished, and is now a polished turd. But it might be the best turd that we’ve got.”

            For many, the now-reflexive action when they hear this kind of stuff is to inquire “why didn’t u put that on the side of ur bus m8???”. And yet, was Steve’s interjection in the actual chamber the moment that well-worn joke format ascended to its purest – which is to say, its most grotesque – form? Putting turd all over the side of a bus, having half the country vote for it, and then driving this dirty-protest-mobile past every single warning-sign of the past two and a half years has brought us to this particular precipice. Tuesday night’s Commons spectacle reminded me of one of Jonathan Swift’s last poems, about the Irish parliament – specifically this bit:

            “Let them, when they once get in,
            Sell the nation for a pin;
            While they sit a-picking straws,
            Let them rave at making laws;
            While they never hold their tongue,
            Let them dabble in their dung …
            We may, while they strain their throats
            Wipes our arses with their votes.”

            So yup, pretty much all covered by Dean Swift there back in the 1730s, right down to Theresa May’s strained throat. However unique this moment might feel, I suppose we must remember that politicians have been letting down their people for centuries and centuries.

            Even so, the abysmal calibre of those in whose hands we’re in can feel remarkable. Nigel Dodds! Have you beheld Nigel? If you didn’t know he was the deputy leader of the DUP, you’d say he has the face of a head of geography who has been suspended pending an investigation into accusations he struck a pupil. Or perhaps you prefer Boris Johnson, who stood up to urge to parliament to “behave as a great country”. Says the guy who’s been behaving like a complete country since prep school. According to that guy, no deal is “the only safe path to self–respect”. Boris Johnson showing you the only safe path to self-respect is like Paul Burrell showing you the only safe path to dignity, or Hannibal Lecter showing you the only safe path home. With his elite-busting reference to “Carthaginian terms”, Boris is entirely of a piece with Jacob Rees-Mogg, who on Tuesday tweeted simply: “Dies irae, dies illa”. To read fan replies humbly begging “give us a clue Jacob!” (in vain) is to be reminded that all populists secretly hate their people; but these two do it openly.

            Fans of sledgehammer imagery, meanwhile, may care to note that disgraced former Conservative politician Jeffrey Archer was sitting in the public gallery on Tuesday night, while disgraced former Labour member Fiona Onasanya became the first MP to vote while wearing an electronic tag. Four decades of gathering uselessness and mendacity had brought us to this occasion, to which we might as well picture Archer and Onasanya as bookends.

            If it feels unfair to lump most of the House of Commons in together, please don’t let it. It must not be forgotten that MPs voted 498 to 114 to trigger article 50 two years ago, apparently without a clue what the predictable implications of negotiating against the clock with a much stronger opponent were. Most of those 498 MPs are a reminder than no one in this country should ever suffer from impostor syndrome again. I really do hope to see as many of them as possible at the eventual public inquiry.

            The story of Brexit since the referendum has in large part been the story of politicians finding out in real time what the thing they had already done actually meant, then deferring the admission or even acceptance of it. We hear a lot about low-information voters, but low-information politicians are the bigger problem. Even this week, Tory Brexiteers Esther McVey and Daniel Kawczynski were spreading arrant lies about enforced joining of the euro. It is traditional at these moments to ask if the politicians in question are stupid or liars; in the case of Esther and Daniel, the question is moot as they are both.

            Westminster has become so unmoored from reality that half of its denizens can’t even remember which lie they told. In the wake of May’s defeat, Tory deputy chairman James Cleverly informed the BBC that she had “inherited this job”, like it was some loss-making family business May had sportingly tried to make a go of, as opposed to the position of prime minister, which she’d remorselessly pursued, to the point of having been too self-interested to even fight for her side in the referendum.

            On the other side of the house, meanwhile, sat Jeremy Corbyn, who famously wanted to trigger article 50 before anyone else, on the very day after the referendum. Yet on Tuesday he was wittering at the prime minister: “The clock has been run out on her!” Corbyn now seems to be back to pushing his phantom Brexit deal, as opposed to the second referendum he briefly suggested was Labour policy. I know rebelling against the leadership is Corbyn’s comfort zone, but it does make you look a historic tit when you are the leadership.

            As for what happens next, one Tory MP judged: “**** knows”. Welcome to ****knowsville. Population: us. In Westminster, an MP leaving the ERG meeting had called the mood “realistic” before adding: “but the question is, what is reality?” No. The question is, what is this complete ********? Morpheus, but if he was the member for Wycombe? In the north, Nigel Farage’s Leave Means Leave army girds itself to march south from Sunderland to London. And in Brussels, one EU diplomat warned ominously that “behind the scenes people are increasingly saying it is better to call it quits”, which is diplomatic speak for “so completely done with the UK’s ****”.

            We might as well play out with former Brexit secretary David Davis, whose appearance before the eventual inquiry will, I fantasise, be lengthy and sensationally uncomfortable. “If we walk away,” David breezed breezily on Tuesday, shortly before U-turning and voting for a deal he had spent months pissing all over, “What can they do? They cannot invade you, can they?” More’s the pity. If only there was an option for “invasion by competent people”. They don’t have to be FROM the continent, but they do have to BE continent.
            Tis but a scratch.

            Comment


              Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post

              As I keep repeating, immigrants into the UK from the EU are not required to register until they have been here for six months. As my Polish friend told me, many of his compatriots do not wish to be registered so come and go within six months. Consequently the immigration figures are a complete nonsense. Personally I could not care less than there are hundreds of thousands more EU migrants in the UK than the official figures, but there simply are and it is a Pole who told me how it works, who has no axe to grind whatsoever. But most importantly a massive number of British people do not believe any of the immigration statistics that the government use, I certainly don’t but I am unusual in that I don’t care, indeed, I would prefer more immigrants and fewer Brits most of the time...


              What sort of registration is he referring to? The ONS immigration figures are based on the International Passenger Survey, isn't it?

              There's lots of issues with it, and it's probably not accurate, but I'm not sure the issue he's describing would be one of them.

              "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

              "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


              "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

              Comment


                Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post



                What sort of registration is he referring to? The ONS immigration figures are based on the International Passenger Survey, isn't it?

                There's lots of issues with it, and it's probably not accurate, but I'm not sure the issue he's describing would be one of them.
                The 850,000 figure for Polish migration that was released just before the referendum was based on Poles who have actually registered to pay NI in the UK. It was at the time it was published that my friend told me it massively underestimated the actual migration figures. Like I said I don’t care how many migrants are in the UK but I also do not remotely believe the figures and I am far from alone in my incredulity.

                Comment


                  As pointed out by BB, the ONS figure are based on passenger survey data and supplemented by other data.
                  Is it accurate? Not 100%, but probably within 10% or so.

                  Registration for NI isn't just for paying tax - it's also to other state services.

                  Whatever you may think, it's absolutely 100% true that now non EU migration is a multiple of EU migration.

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                  Comment


                    Originally posted by fitzy73 View Post
                    As pointed out by BB, the ONS figure are based on passenger survey data and supplemented by other data.
                    Is it accurate? Not 100%, but probably within 10% or so.

                    Registration for NI isn't just for paying tax - it's also to other state services.

                    Whatever you may think, it's absolutely 100% true that now non EU migration is a multiple of EU migration.
                    The 850,000 figure, published just before the referendum, was based on people who had registered for work, not passenger survey data. I have just double checked it. The figure is such palpable nonsense that it completely undermines anything anyone has to say relating to immigration. To reiterate I really don’t care at all how many migrants there are in the UK from within or without of the EU, I just do not, remotely, trust the statistics on immigration.

                    Comment


                      Interesting!

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agZ0xISi40E

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Waterfordlad View Post
                        Nothing worse than some outside group telling you that you didn’t really understand what you were doing. Makes a lot of people dig their heels in.

                        i could see a bigger leave vote if they have a second vote on it.
                        There is definitely a surge in support for “f’ck It don’t give them a penny and leave with No Deal”. Terrifying, especially if you have a child reliant on a medicine made in Germany but I really don’t think anyone will allow a No Deal Brexit and I think that the most likely scenario is a second referendum.

                        Comment


                          No Deal is gone, maybe the penny will finally drop with the nut jobs that it is May’s Deal or second referendum/ Remain.

                          Comment


                            No, No Deal isn't gone yet.

                            The Main Motion, as amended, is now being voted on.
                            It is possible that this (amended) motion might be defeated. The majority was only 4, don't forget.

                            Even if this (amended) motion is passed, it will require a new Act of Parliament to finally rule out No Deal.


                            EDIT The amended motion was passed 321 to 278.
                            Last edited by Piquet; 13th-March-2019, 19:56.

                            Comment


                              This is all tactical to get her Deal passed hence why she has permitted abstentions. Confirmation next week at the summit that the only extension to which the EU will agree will be a year, minimum, and possibly be predicated on another referendum and the nut jobs have no where to go. A very good night for Mrs May not that anyone will credit her cleverness/ cunning even if she gets her Deal through.
                              Last edited by the plastic paddy; 13th-March-2019, 21:07.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post
                                No Deal is gone, maybe the penny will finally drop with the nut jobs that it is May’s Deal or second referendum/ Remain.
                                Speaking on behalf of the ordinary respectable nut job community I resent this pejorative equivocation with the ERGs. IMO the ERGs need at least 500 years of intense psychiatric treatment along with regular electro-convulsive therapy just to get them UP to the level of nut job.

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