Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Brexit referendum and negotiations 2016-18

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Originally posted by HenryFitz View Post

    The Norway option is substantially different to the Canada option. This contradicts your assertion that there is 'little substantial difference between what Labour claimed they wanted and her plan'. The difference between being in a customs union and not being in a customs union is substantial. Either defend that assertion or accept that you were mistaken. Or just waffle about something else. You generally make use of that alternative arrangement.
    Both want to leave the Single market and 'the' customs Union - that is substantially the same.

    Mays plan envisages staying in 'a' customs Union (a temporary single custom territory) - until the backstop is replaced by magic/technology but cant do their own trade deals and Labour want to be in 'a' customs Union indefinitely - where they are pretending they can do their own Trade deals (against EU rules).

    That is substantially the same.

    Labour will however need a backstop for their plan in order to deal with the differences in standards of Single Market goods passing between the North and GB - and of course they are in denial about that.


    Last edited by AdolphusGrigson; 4th-February-2019, 22:16.
    ​​​​​​#GiveLeinsterTheHCupNow

    Originally Posted by mr chips
    AG gets the responses he does because he is a journalist..

    Comment


      Originally posted by AdolphusGrigson View Post

      Both want to leave the Single market and 'the' customs Union - that is substantially the same.

      Mays plan envisages staying in 'a' customs Union (a temporary single custom territory) - until the backstop is replaced by magic/technology but cant do their own trade deals and Labour want to be in 'a' customs Union indefinitely - where they are pretending they can do their own Trade deals (against EU rules).

      That is substantially the same.

      Labour will however need a backstop for their plan in order to deal with the differences in standards of Single Market goods passing between the North and GB - and of course they are in denial about that.

      The temporary single customs territory is the backstop. It is not a permanent customs union. The May endpoint is a free trade deal, not a customs union. They are substantially different.

      Also, May is not likely to be the leader of the Tories for the duration of the free trade negotiations. Her envisaged endpoint will not be reached. It is not definite what the Tory position will evolve to, but presumably it will be Canada minus. But it could be much worse. I certainly wouldn't place any trust in the Tory party to negotiate something satisfactory to Labour supporters, be they Leave or Remain. So why would the Labour party just roll over and let them at it?

      Comment


        Originally posted by HenryFitz View Post

        The temporary single customs territory is the backstop. It is not a permanent customs union. The May endpoint is a free trade deal, not a customs union. They are substantially different.

        Also, May is not likely to be the leader of the Tories for the duration of the free trade negotiations. Her envisaged endpoint will not be reached. It is not definite what the Tory position will evolve to, but presumably it will be Canada minus. But it could be much worse. I certainly wouldn't place any trust in the Tory party to negotiate something satisfactory to Labour supporters, be they Leave or Remain. So why would the Labour party just roll over and let them at it?
        re. "Or just waffle about something else. You generally make use of that alternative arrangement."

        You just demonstrated what you accused me of....

        ​​​​​​re ."So why would the Labour party just roll over and let them at".

        Labour should consider the National interest rather than party politics - something you have illustrated perfectly by that question.
        ​​​​​​#GiveLeinsterTheHCupNow

        Originally Posted by mr chips
        AG gets the responses he does because he is a journalist..

        Comment


          Originally posted by AdolphusGrigson View Post

          re. "Or just waffle about something else. You generally make use of that alternative arrangement."

          You just demonstrated what you accused me of....

          ​​​​​​re ."So why would the Labour party just roll over and let them at".

          Labour should consider the National interest rather than party politics - something you have illustrated perfectly by that question.
          Glad to see you have conceded that there is a substantial difference between the Norway option and the Canada option. The National Interest is better served by the Norway option, in Labour's opinion, and probably in the opinion of a lot of Tory MPs. Labour raised an amendment to allow them to negotiate the Norway option with the EU. This was defeated. The National Interest is also better served by ruling out No Deal, and asking for an extension of A50. Labour have voted to rule out No Deal and ask for an extension. This was also defeated.

          Comment


            As a punishment for that vicious rugby ambush last Saturday..............we have changed out demand for a soft border to an entirely gaseous border.

            Comment


              Originally posted by HenryFitz View Post

              Glad to see you have conceded that there is a substantial difference between the Norway option and the Canada option. The National Interest is better served by the Norway option, in Labour's opinion, and probably in the opinion of a lot of Tory MPs. Labour raised an amendment to allow them to negotiate the Norway option with the EU. This was defeated. The National Interest is also better served by ruling out No Deal, and asking for an extension of A50. Labour have voted to rule out No Deal and ask for an extension. This was also defeated.
              I have conceded feck all and illustrated the similarities between 2 version of the customs Union - either of which might end up literally anywhere depending on the 2 parties trying to work out their own and the others policies and what the EU will allow. And you have illustrated the obsession with party politics to exclusion of the national interest.

              The behaviour of both parties has been woeful - the Tories landing the country in the mess and Labour doing feck all to try and get out of said mess - as the good ship HMS Brittania goes down there are 2 idiots fighting between themselves rather than launching the lifeboat.


              ​​​​​​#GiveLeinsterTheHCupNow

              Originally Posted by mr chips
              AG gets the responses he does because he is a journalist..

              Comment


                I think Labour can recover from this but hard to see how the Tories will not be destroyed. There's NO possibility of the EU compromising, in fact it's actually very much in their interest NOT to compromise, anything else might fatally destabilize them. The ERG are away with the fairies. When the Tories realize finally that they are inescapably cornered and have to look for a postponement, what then? If it was a rugby match, the EU are 14 points up, we're in the 79th minute and oul Tessie is banging away at the EU try line. The game is lost duckie.

                Comment


                  A few interesting things from the last few days. If Corbyn is accused of being a leaver in the north and a remainer in the south, then May, as per yesterdays speech in Belfast, surely must support no border whilst in Northern Ireland and support no backstop while in Parliament.

                  The other interesting thing is the rumours of an election in June. So May to go immediately after Brexit, Tory leadership battle for a few weeks, then a GE in June.

                  Lions led by donkeys has never been so apt.
                  Please support Milford Hospice. Click here to donate.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by fitzy73 View Post
                    A few interesting things from the last few days. If Corbyn is accused of being a leaver in the north and a remainer in the south, then May, as per yesterdays speech in Belfast, surely must support no border whilst in Northern Ireland and support no backstop while in Parliament.

                    The other interesting thing is the rumours of an election in June. So May to go immediately after Brexit, Tory leadership battle for a few weeks, then a GE in June.

                    Lions led by donkeys has never been so apt.
                    The election talk is nonsense, imho. It is a threat to focus minds. May could very well go, if her agreement goes through, leaving someone else to deal with the trade deal etc. But, if they vote her deal down it is more likely she will twist on second referendum, her Deal or Remain. But I still think her Deal will go through and as poor as it is (and always was going to be) I think it is probably the best option for everyone until such time as the UK grows up and wants to become a full member of the EU, complete with the €, Schengen, Euro army etc. If it is as disastrous as everyone predicts it will be, it won’t take long for the country to come to it’s senses and choose to rejoin. I would add that May’s Deal is definitely the best option for the EU because a second referendum would leave the issue festering and No Deal runs the risk of not being as apocalyptic as predicted, which would call an awful lot of bluffs, not least of which would be the border issue.

                    Comment


                      There doesn't seem to be any appetite for no deal but that seems to be the most likely outcome of this whole process at the moment.
                      In my opinion if the EU give way on the Border question that is not acceptable to Ireland then the EU's days are numbered as more and more countries will see them as weak and a non united entity.
                      If they hold firm will the commons vote against no deal and for an extension of article 50 ? .
                      i think the EU will offer some "assurances " on the backstop but these wont be sufficient so may i think will go back to her deal again and put it a vote in the commons which will more than likely fail again.
                      she should in my opinion seek support across party for a NI only backstop it seems to only way forward to me even though it alienates the dup .

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post

                        The election talk is nonsense, imho. It is a threat to focus minds. May could very well go, if her agreement goes through, leaving someone else to deal with the trade deal etc. But, if they vote her deal down it is more likely she will twist on second referendum, her Deal or Remain. But I still think her Deal will go through and as poor as it is (and always was going to be) I think it is probably the best option for everyone until such time as the UK grows up and wants to become a full member of the EU, complete with the €, Schengen, Euro army etc. If it is as disastrous as everyone predicts it will be, it won’t take long for the country to come to it’s senses and choose to rejoin. I would add that May’s Deal is definitely the best option for the EU because a second referendum would leave the issue festering and No Deal runs the risk of not being as apocalyptic as predicted, which would call an awful lot of bluffs, not least of which would be the border issue.
                        I think Mays deal will go through in some form or other. She might end up burning the DUP to get cross party support, but it will possibly squeak through.

                        I also think she will go if it goes through. A new leader with no mandatw would be a disaster for the Tories. The only way to get a mandate is a GE.

                        It's pretty evident that the next Tory leader will be a Brexiter, so that makes things more complicated.
                        Please support Milford Hospice. Click here to donate.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by AdolphusGrigson View Post

                          I have conceded feck all and illustrated the similarities between 2 version of the customs Union - either of which might end up literally anywhere depending on the 2 parties trying to work out their own and the others policies and what the EU will allow. And you have illustrated the obsession with party politics to exclusion of the national interest.

                          The behaviour of both parties has been woeful - the Tories landing the country in the mess and Labour doing feck all to try and get out of said mess - as the good ship HMS Brittania goes down there are 2 idiots fighting between themselves rather than launching the lifeboat.

                          They are not 2 versions of the customs union. One is a Norway style customs union. The other is Canada plus unicorns and cake. I didn't think there were many believers in cake and unicorns in Ireland, but seemingly you are one. Let me try to explain it simply for you. One is a customs union. The other is not.

                          Now here is a quick quiz to see if you've been paying attention. Which one of the following is a customs union?

                          1. A Customs Union
                          2. A Free Trade Deal excluding a Customs Union

                          Scroll down for the answer.












                          1 is the correct answer. A customs union is indeed a customs union. Thanks for playing.

                          Comment


                            Meeeowww!! saucer and milk....
                            Last edited by Daithi; 6th-February-2019, 18:53.
                            ____________________________________________
                            Munster were great when they were Munster.

                            alas they are just north munster now.......
                            ____________________________________________

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by HenryFitz View Post

                              They are not 2 versions of the customs union. One is a Norway style customs union. The other is Canada plus unicorns and cake. I didn't think there were many believers in cake and unicorns in Ireland, but seemingly you are one. Let me try to explain it simply for you. One is a customs union. The other is not.

                              Now here is a quick quiz to see if you've been paying attention. Which one of the following is a customs union?

                              1. A Customs Union
                              2. A Free Trade Deal excluding a Customs Union

                              Scroll down for the answer.












                              1 is the correct answer. A customs union is indeed a customs union. Thanks for playing.

                              Although it may not appear as if you did - I fear you have been working on that for some time...

                              Have a read of what Alan Johnson has to say on the subject - which rather blows your little theory out the water.


                              "I am firmly in the Norway camp and this deal keeps that option open while protecting EU migrants, finalising the divorce bill and ensuring no hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic. "
                              ​​​​​​#GiveLeinsterTheHCupNow

                              Originally Posted by mr chips
                              AG gets the responses he does because he is a journalist..

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by AdolphusGrigson View Post


                                Although it may not appear as if you did - I fear you have been working on that for some time...

                                Have a read of what Alan Johnson has to say on the subject - which rather blows your little theory out the water.


                                "I am firmly in the Norway camp and this deal keeps that option open while protecting EU migrants, finalising the divorce bill and ensuring no hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic. "
                                This is only true if the Tory party were not negotiating the deal. The Tory party are negotiating the deal. Their red line is no customs union. Labour's red line is a customs union. Spot the substantial difference?

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X