Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Brexit referendum and negotiations 2016-18

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    That's fair enough, but a massive majority of his electorate are very much interested in staying in the EU. He has to do whatever it takes to get their support.
    Tis but a scratch.

    Comment


      Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post

      And what is he going to do on FOM?
      Well, if people start pushing Norway Plus that would imply retaining FOM...

      Reality is, there is no hope of a Labour Govt if Corbyn doesn't leave a route to remain.
      "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

      "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


      "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

      Comment


        There's no reason why a Corbyn govt couldn't come to some sort of bilateral or multilateral deal on migration. Perhaps it's true that attitudes to Brexit have softened in England. I wouldn't bet on it personally. But roughly half the English people are hostile to the EU and another 20% aren't hostile but neither are they enthusiastic supporters.

        So IMHO Corbyn is right to try to change the conversation.

        A positive, friendly and co-operative accommodation with the EU ought to be possible and compatible with the UK leaving its political structures and it would split the soft Brexiteers from the Old Imperialists and Cakeists.
        Munster – Champions of Europe 2006, 2008, 2019.

        Comment


          But if you are hostile to the EU, then how happy will you be with staying in the CU/SEM but not having a say on the rules. I'd imagine that the daily MailSunExprezTorygraf will just keep saying that crowd in Brussels / Berlin are a nice bunch of lads.
          Seven social sins: politics without principles, wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, and worship without sacrifice



          Comment


            All are playing politics with the whole fiasco and that is what it has become. May will lose the vote next week and I bet any money moves will be made to extend the leave date from march 29.

            Comment


              The trouble is that there is not 310 votes FOR anything. There are not 300 votes to extend, there are not 300 votes to have a second referendum, there are not 300 votes for a Norway +, there are not 300 votes for a general election.
              So if you cannot approve anything then the default occurs. The default is a no-deal
              Seven social sins: politics without principles, wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, and worship without sacrifice



              Comment


                Originally posted by scotscor View Post
                The trouble is that there is not 310 votes FOR anything. There are not 300 votes to extend, there are not 300 votes to have a second referendum, there are not 300 votes for a Norway +, there are not 300 votes for a general election.
                So if you cannot approve anything then the default occurs. The default is a no-deal
                currently true, but positions will change after the vote next week otherwise the whole of the uk parliament will have given in to a minority who advocate leave at all costs ,ie the ERG grouping.

                Comment


                  It’s got really scary now because there is a genuine chance of no deal. Up to the end of 2017 there was a certain amount of entertainment in watching our neighbours screw Brexit up. However, as of now, nobody can predict where we’ll be on 30th March, and this is really serious.

                  Apart from the potential looming catastrophe for Ireland, it’s genuinely disturbing to see the complete unraveling of the UK administration through a needless self-inflicted blow.

                  I’m not enjoying this any more.
                  "I don't believe in fairytales," O'Connell once told me, "even though it feels like I've been lucky enough to live through a few. However it ends, I'll feel lucky."
                  Donald McRae, Guardian Rugby, October 2015

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by scotscor View Post
                    But if you are hostile to the EU, then how happy will you be with staying in the CU/SEM but not having a say on the rules. I'd imagine that the daily MailSunExprezTorygraf will just keep saying that crowd in Brussels / Berlin are a nice bunch of lads.
                    True, it's not cake, so some would be incensed, but my guess us many will be content that it's settled and reassured by the realisation that no one is delighted.

                    Plus, a Corbyn govt would address the core issues behind the English anti-EU vote. Hopefully that will be enough to derail the drift to the far right.

                    As for the Tory press, nothing will appease them so there's no point in trying.
                    Munster – Champions of Europe 2006, 2008, 2019.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by rathbaner View Post

                      True, it's not cake, so some would be incensed, but my guess us many will be content that it's settled and reassured by the realisation that no one is delighted.

                      Plus, a Corbyn govt would address the core issues behind the English anti-EU vote. Hopefully that will be enough to derail the drift to the far right.

                      As for the Tory press, nothing will appease them so there's no point in trying.
                      FOM was the beginning and ending of Brexit. The idea the EU are going to allow the UK to stay in the SM and the CU without FOM is pie in the sky, unicorns riding on twelve tiered wedding cakes. It is Labours great dilemma, and always has been, that their core working class support in places like Bolsover, Rotherham etc is implacably opposed to immigration whilst the membership is metropolitan, inclusive and (whisper it) middle class, much like Corbyn (the private school boy) himself and the Whyehamists with whom he has surrounded himself. If Corbyn puts Remain on the ticket he loses out in one area, if he doesn’t he loses out in others and that is all down to immigration.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by blackwarrior View Post
                        It’s got really scary now because there is a genuine chance of no deal. Up to the end of 2017 there was a certain amount of entertainment in watching our neighbours screw Brexit up. However, as of now, nobody can predict where we’ll be on 30th March, and this is really serious.

                        Apart from the potential looming catastrophe for Ireland, it’s genuinely disturbing to see the complete unraveling of the UK administration through a needless self-inflicted blow.

                        I’m not enjoying this any more.
                        No Deal would be terrible for everyone but it would be catastrophic for Ireland. I don’t think it will happen though, in fact, far fetched as it might sound, I think the Queen would step in to prevent it.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post

                          No Deal would be terrible for everyone but it would be catastrophic for Ireland. I don’t think it will happen though, in fact, far fetched as it might sound, I think the Queen would step in to prevent it.
                          ​​​​

                          Whilst the risk of a no deal remains there is a majority against it in parliament. No progress can be made on the alternatives to May's Deal and No Deal until after May's Deal is defeated. Labour will then be forced out into the open on where they stand and the great blue hope Dominic Grieve will cobble together numbers for a delay in Brexit and or a 2nd vote.

                          If a No Deal was likely at this point or becomes likely the 'markets' would throw a serious wobbler.

                          And yes delightful prospect of the queen riding up to Westminster on her horse waving her sword over her head and shouting ' 'I'm closing this place down'. (She would be doing everyone a favour.)
                          ​​​​​​#GiveLeinsterTheHCupNow

                          Originally Posted by mr chips
                          AG gets the responses he does because he is a journalist..

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by AdolphusGrigson View Post

                            ​​​​

                            Whilst the risk of a no deal remains there is a majority against it in parliament. No progress can be made on the alternatives to May's Deal and No Deal until after May's Deal is defeated. Labour will then be forced out into the open on where they stand and the great blue hope Dominic Grieve will cobble together numbers for a delay in Brexit and or a 2nd vote.)
                            I just dont see the optimism. They need to vote for something to stop a no deal. Failing to do that and the default happens
                            Seven social sins: politics without principles, wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, and worship without sacrifice



                            Comment


                              Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post

                              FOM was the beginning and ending of Brexit. The idea the EU are going to allow the UK to stay in the SM and the CU without FOM is pie in the sky, unicorns riding on twelve tiered wedding cakes. It is Labours great dilemma, and always has been, that their core working class support in places like Bolsover, Rotherham etc is implacably opposed to immigration whilst the membership is metropolitan, inclusive and (whisper it) middle class, much like Corbyn (the private school boy) himself and the Whyehamists with whom he has surrounded himself. If Corbyn puts Remain on the ticket he loses out in one area, if he doesn’t he loses out in others and that is all down to immigration.
                              Labour has dealt with this issue before back in the day, and very well too. I think it's important not to accept how the issues are framed by the Brexiteers and their friends in Brexitland.

                              The reality is that there are problematic issues with the EU, a referendum has happened and an exit deal has been negotiated.

                              IMHO the unicorn-pie in the sky option is the conviction that a second referendum would simply put all that back in Pandora's Box and it could be then pushed under the bed and everyone would carry on as if the last three years hadn't happened.

                              We are beyond that now.

                              Brexit will almost certainly happen, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it has to happen the way the Daily Mail frames it.

                              It ought to be possible to have a friendly and positive relationship with the EU that deals with migration in an enlightened way. There would have to be compromises and I would expect the EU to extract a hefty price for the privelege, probably a price that only the second largest economy in Europe could afford and one that may possibly trigger the end of the City of London as a great financial centre.

                              But for that to happen the government has to fight the fear driven by xenophobia and racism, both handmaidens of the Tory right. Long term under investment in services, the increasing marginalisation of large sections of the working poor and the end of the relationship between work and wages/prosperity all need to be addressed. Brexit is as much a symptom as it is a disease.



                              Munster – Champions of Europe 2006, 2008, 2019.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post

                                FOM was the beginning and ending of Brexit. The idea the EU are going to allow the UK to stay in the SM and the CU without FOM is pie in the sky, unicorns riding on twelve tiered wedding cakes. It is Labours great dilemma, and always has been, that their core working class support in places like Bolsover, Rotherham etc is implacably opposed to immigration whilst the membership is metropolitan, inclusive and (whisper it) middle class, much like Corbyn (the private school boy) himself and the Whyehamists with whom he has surrounded himself. If Corbyn puts Remain on the ticket he loses out in one area, if he doesn’t he loses out in others and that is all down to immigration.
                                Corbyn went to a state Grammar. No one uses the phrase "private school boy" to refer to independent primaries.

                                He is solidly Middle Class, but the Labour Party has always had strong middle class support. And Blair's party was a party aimed almost entirely at the middle class.

                                I fundamentally agree with the "always has been". The polling, and election outcomes, for the last 20 years show solidly and repeatedly that immigration was not a widespread concern until after the 2008 crash, and neither was the EU and Freedom of Movement. It hasn't by any means been a dilemma historically.
                                Last edited by Balla Boy; 11th-January-2019, 13:10.
                                "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                                "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                                "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X