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Brexit referendum and negotiations 2016-18

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    Amazing that even though the tories are crippling so many with austerity, the tories brought about the brexit vote, the tories promoted it, and the tories and are pushing ahead with it so them and their rich pals with get richer at the expense of everyone else some people are still bullsh1tting on about corbyn is or isnt doing.

    Classic and transparent distraction from the actual root of the which is may, mogg etc and their millionaire chums.

    Comment


      A second referendum can only happen if Labour support it. If they don't, it won't. And either Corbyn is playing the best game of poker in the history of politics, or he doesn't support a second referendum.

      I know which one my money is on.
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      Comment


        Yeah, the only way I see that happening is if enough MPs and party members force it. Not beyond the realms of possibility, mind you.
        Tis but a scratch.

        Comment


          Originally posted by mr chips View Post
          Yeah, the only way I see that happening is if enough MPs and party members force it. Not beyond the realms of possibility, mind you.
          True. It seems to be a very disjointed and incoherent discussion - a middle ground should emerge but has not yet. Incoherence which was driven by bad motives/poor rationale in calling for a referendum and irresponsible lies in the campaign.

          Perhaps it will after the WA is rejected and there is a straight choice between a cliff edge leave and remaining.

          Labour have been dreadful. Rather than showing leadership they are trying to play a chess game but people are not stupid. Perhaps the latest polls will drive a heave against Corbyn but unlikely.

          The U.K. Government was not prepared for a referendum - no
          Referendum commission, no fact checking, no broadcasting rules. Post referendum, there should have been greater efforts taken to understand the result.

          I feel like we are we are looking at a banana republic. FPTP drives an adversarial election system where consensus politics rarely emerge.

          Comment


            Originally posted by fitzy73 View Post
            A second referendum can only happen if Labour support it. If they don't, it won't. And either Corbyn is playing the best game of poker in the history of politics, or he doesn't support a second referendum.

            I know which one my money is on.
            I think it is clear that Corbyn (for very different reasons than the Tories) is a Brexiteer - he is a communist at heart and in his view there is no way he can pursue those ideals within the EU such as nationalising enterprises (rail?), State supports for industry etc. but one can argue that it was U.K. implementation of EU rules as with migration which was at fault not the EU.

            I am curious in terms of how the Labour Party works. If the leadership is moving in a direction against the wishes of the membership or indeed the parliamentary party as a whole can brakes be applied? Does it require a heave against Corbyn or a mutiny in parliament? Is there a national executive of the party who can put pressure on the leadership?

            Comment


              Originally posted by The Last Stand View Post

              True. It seems to be a very disjointed and incoherent discussion - a middle ground should emerge but has not yet. Incoherence which was driven by bad motives/poor rationale in calling for a referendum and irresponsible lies in the campaign.

              Perhaps it will after the WA is rejected and there is a straight choice between a cliff edge leave and remaining.

              Labour have been dreadful. Rather than showing leadership they are trying to play a chess game but people are not stupid. Perhaps the latest polls will drive a heave against Corbyn but unlikely.

              The U.K. Government was not prepared for a referendum - no
              Referendum commission, no fact checking, no broadcasting rules. Post referendum, there should have been greater efforts taken to understand the result.

              I feel like we are we are looking at a banana republic. FPTP drives an adversarial election system where consensus politics rarely emerge.
              I'm afraid you're showing your age :-)

              The idea that every issue has a reasonable middle ground is comfortable for those of us who grew up in the age of the Third Way and Triangulation, but it's increasingly untrue. Both in terms of how voters respond, and in terms of the issues themselves.

              There's no middle ground on Brexit. There's remain, and ****ing stupidity.

              There's no middle ground on climate change, and on a range of the other largest issues looming this century.

              We're entering a period of polarised politics. This is a direct result of the deliberate efforts over decades by the right wing to destroy the post war consensus.

              And so, for instance, the UK currently holds radio phone ins in which people debate whether children should be allowed to drown in the Channel.


              The essential beliefs that underpinned the post war consensus - in human rights, social security, job security, access to decent housing - they need to be fought all over again. And the middle ground isn't the answer.

              90% of the people in Europe need to wake up to the fact that they've been on the losing end of a class war for the last knocking on 40 years now.

              "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

              "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


              "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

              Comment


                Originally posted by The Last Stand View Post

                I think it is clear that Corbyn (for very different reasons than the Tories) is a Brexiteer - he is a communist at heart and in his view there is no way he can pursue those ideals within the EU such as nationalising enterprises (rail?), State supports for industry etc. but one can argue that it was U.K. implementation of EU rules as with migration which was at fault not the EU.

                I am curious in terms of how the Labour Party works. If the leadership is moving in a direction against the wishes of the membership or indeed the parliamentary party as a whole can brakes be applied? Does it require a heave against Corbyn or a mutiny in parliament? Is there a national executive of the party who can put pressure on the leadership?
                I don't think he is a communist at heart - he's probably more Nordic model. However I believe he (wrongly) sees the EU as being against that model of state ownership, and getting the UK out of the EU would make it easier to implement his policies.

                Alas no one is advising him that it's hard to build a Nordic model in the UK if it has been burnt to the ground in a no deal exit.

                He's already won two leadership elections so I can't see the PLP trying to oust him anytime soon.

                However if he doesn't call for a Peoples Vote after Mays vote is defeated next week you could see the likes of Keir Starmer finally lose the plot and call him out.

                Again, who knows though? This is the biggest constitutional crisis in the UK since the second world war.

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                Comment


                  Originally posted by fitzy73 View Post

                  I don't think he is a communist at heart - he's probably more Nordic model. However I believe he (wrongly) sees the EU as being against that model of state ownership, and getting the UK out of the EU would make it easier to implement his policies.

                  Alas no one is advising him that it's hard to build a Nordic model in the UK if it has been burnt to the ground in a no deal exit.

                  He's already won two leadership elections so I can't see the PLP trying to oust him anytime soon.

                  However if he doesn't call for a Peoples Vote after Mays vote is defeated next week you could see the likes of Keir Starmer finally lose the plot and call him out.

                  Again, who knows though? This is the biggest constitutional crisis in the UK since the second world war.
                  If he doesn't swing at least towards a People's Vote there'll be a leadership challenge. There are too many people who want him gone. Blair could have ridden roughshod over the will of members (and did on Iraq) but Corbyn's platform is based on party democracy.

                  If someone stands against him as "Left, Remain" with the same raft of policies on public ownership, tuition, anti austerity etc I think they'll have a very good shot at beating him. And I don't think those that actively want him gone - the Progress types - will let that opportunity pass.

                  I'm also not sure it would be a terrible thing (though the timing is awful). A candidate like Starmer might be able to re-engage the likes of Cooper without handing the party back to the clapped out centrists like Umunna who still think that the 10% in the centre are all that matter.

                  "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                  "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                  "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                  Comment


                    Parliamentary pandemonium today. And rumblings of what is a ****ing staggering indication of the nature of the Tory Party. May knows she will lose her no deal vote. She is delaying it. The Tories put forward the business motion, and it was amended by Grieve to put a deadline on the vote. Bercow allowed the amendment to be voted on.

                    Cabinet ministers are now apparently advising the PM to call a GE for the day after Brexit, which would lead to the suspension of the House and the expiration of the A50 period while, as a Cabinet minister was quoted as saying, "Parliament could do nothing about it".

                    These people are ****ing fascists.
                    "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                    "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                    "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                    Comment


                      They are being driven by that recent poll showing the party membership want a no deal Brexit. And whoever replaces May will have to be hardline, no deal, crash out Brexit.

                      This is FUBAR.
                      Please support Milford Hospice. Click here to donate.

                      Comment


                        It is.

                        And - with apologies - a correction to the earlier post. Grieve’s amendment was to insist that May must return to the house within 3 days with a plan B if her vote is defeated.

                        It’s aimed at preventing her from letting the clock run down on A50.

                        And it’s been passed, despite the Tory whips starting a small riot for it even being allowed to be voted on.
                        "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                        "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                        "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                        Comment


                          The Proxy war is over. If she calls a GE the place will go into meltdown. Things could get very ugly very quickly.

                          I'm going to escalate my no deal prep.
                          Please support Milford Hospice. Click here to donate.

                          Comment


                            https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...e_iOSApp_Other

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by fitzy73 View Post
                              The Proxy war is over. If she calls a GE the place will go into meltdown. Things could get very ugly very quickly.

                              I'm going to escalate my no deal prep.
                              I think this week has shown that no-deal is a non-runner. There is a clear majority in the HoC that will block it and a speaker that will allow them.

                              To call a general election she would need to have the approval of the House under the Fixed Term Parliament act. I can see Corbyn being happy to give her a GE but Starmer would insist on an A50 extension before the house rose.

                              Corbyn and McDonnell are smart enough to know that they couldn't fight a general election with Starmer, Khan and the SNP accusing them of being careerists who put their own fantasy of power ahead of the national interest. They have also both been around long enough to know that the best case scenario then would be a hung parliament needing SNP support to enter number 10 only to govern over a country that has just crashed out with no deal, has massively eroded its tax base, where unemployment or underemployment jumps up particularly in areas with low outward mobility and whose currency has just plummeted in value.

                              In short the DUP and ERG have been snookered. My biggest fear now is that enough of the ERG decide that May's deal is a better bet than they alternative but it's still unlikely to be enough to get her over the line.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by fitzy73 View Post
                                The Proxy war is over. If she calls a GE the place will go into meltdown. Things could get very ugly very quickly.

                                I'm going to escalate my no deal prep.
                                Move back to Limmers boss, jerbs jerbs jerbs! we all have jerbs
                                I am the million man.

                                Comment

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