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    Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post

    That's still not true, a decade later. You may be the last person in the UK still claiming it, in fact.

    Before the banking crash, the UK budget deficit was at a historic low.

    Labour ran surpluses in its first term, and went into deficit from 2002 to fund the restoration of public services. It had already tightened that deficit massively by 2007, and by the time of the crash the deficit was far smaller than that run by the Tories from 1991 to 1997.

    This is a simple matter of fact at this stage. It really is.


    ​​​​​​
    Banking crash or no banking crash, the public finances were bankrupted under a Labour government. That the Tories ran a deficit as well is immaterial. The country wasn’t bankrupt in 1997, in 2010 it was.

    Comment


      Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post

      Johnson has sh’t the bed with the membership as well in part because he appears incapable of keeping his kn’b in his trousers. I still think May will get her deal through though. If she goes the UK won’t be leaving the EU.
      Actually I think the opposite. If she goes, the new leader will be mandated to drive Brexit though, even if that was a no deal one.

      Will the membership really elect Javid? I can see him getting to the last two but will the doddery old dears in Somerset vote for an Asian leader?

      The thought of Gove being PM is slightly terrifying.
      Please support Milford Hospice. Click here to donate.

      Comment


        Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post

        Banking crash or no banking crash, the public finances were bankrupted under a Labour government. That the Tories ran a deficit as well is immaterial. The country wasn’t bankrupt in 1997, in 2010 it was.
        Two things:

        The UK can’t be bankrupt. It issues it’s own currency in which it’s debts are denominated.


        Second, saying that “Labour bankrupted the country” and “the country went bankrupt under a Labour government” are quite different things.

        And eliding them by throwing out a “banking crash or no banking crash” doesn’t work.

        Labour were not responsible for what happened to the UKs public finances in 2008. Fin.
        "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

        "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


        "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

        Comment


          Originally posted by fitzy73 View Post

          Actually I think the opposite. If she goes, the new leader will be mandated to drive Brexit though, even if that was a no deal one.

          Will the membership really elect Javid? I can see him getting to the last two but will the doddery old dears in Somerset vote for an Asian leader?

          The thought of Gove being PM is slightly terrifying.


          Javid is 49. It will be interesting to see whether he feels this is his time or allows himself to be bought out of the process.

          Gove would happily leap at the opportunity to sit astride a skip fire for ten minutes, on the other hand.

          Very hard to see who’d emerge, with the divisions in the party so deep.

          I’m not sure the Remain bloc is large enough to force a candidate into the final 2. But where do they go and what price will someone pay for their support?

          And the constitutional implications of a minority govt that can’t pass its main business appointing a new PM aren’t totally clear, I’d say. It’s not a given that a no deal Tory could form a government.
          "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

          "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


          "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

          Comment


            Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post

            Two things:

            The UK can’t be bankrupt. It issues it’s own currency in which it’s debts are denominated.


            Second, saying that “Labour bankrupted the country” and “the country went bankrupt under a Labour government” are quite different things.

            And eliding them by throwing out a “banking crash or no banking crash” doesn’t work.

            Labour were not responsible for what happened to the UKs public finances in 2008. Fin.
            We will never agree on this but following through on your assertion that the Labour Party shouldn’t be blamed for the country being bankrupted, the Lib Dem’s should not be judged so harshly for making the painful decisions they had to in order to sort out the mess that was left them by the banking crash/ Labour government.

            Comment


              Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post

              We will never agree on this but following through on your assertion that the Labour Party shouldn’t be blamed for the country being bankrupted, the Lib Dem’s should not be judged so harshly for making the painful decisions they had to in order to sort out the mess that was left them by the banking crash/ Labour government.


              Youre right, we won’t. As the other thing that’s been proven is that the “painful decision” to back Tory austerity ****ed the country’s recovery and arguably created the condition for the cluster**** that it is today.

              Contradt with the US, that is still seeing the growth dividend of Obama’s stimulus.

              Yours is the wrong diagnosis, the wrong prognosis and a justification for completely the wrong remedy - a Tory rolling back of the state that has ruined the country.

              No one sorted out the mess. You’re living in it.
              "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

              "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


              "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

              Comment


                Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post



                Youre right, we won’t. As the other thing that’s been proven is that the “painful decision” to back Tory austerity ****ed the country’s recovery and arguably created the condition for the cluster**** that it is today.

                Contradt with the US, that is still seeing the growth dividend of Obama’s stimulus.

                Yours is the wrong diagnosis, the wrong prognosis and a justification for completely the wrong remedy - a Tory rolling back of the state that has ruined the country.

                No one sorted out the mess. You’re living in it.
                You are comparing apples and oranges. Obama was able to maintain public spending stimulus because he could clear the deficit between the money that had been spent and the money that actually existed by fracking it out of the ground. Shale gas and oil usage that fulfilled US energy requirements increased by 25 percent under Obama. The coalition was not blessed with such dirty riches and was faced with the stark choice, if they wanted to keep spending money that didn’t exist, that they would have to print even more of it and feck up everyones’ savings and pensions.

                Comment


                  Hunt is the remain candidate. He would represent some sort of continuity with May. Hard to know how he'd do in a run-off with Javid. He was the scrooge in charge of the NHS so lots of people loathe him.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post

                    You are comparing apples and oranges. Obama was able to maintain public spending stimulus because he could clear the deficit between the money that had been spent and the money that actually existed by fracking it out of the ground. Shale gas and oil usage that fulfilled US energy requirements increased by 25 percent under Obama. The coalition was not blessed with such dirty riches and was faced with the stark choice, if they wanted to keep spending money that didn’t exist, that they would have to print even more of it and feck up everyones’ savings and pensions.
                    Total fiction. Obama printed and borrowed for stimulus.

                    He ran huge Quantative Easing, and added more than 800 billion dollars to the deficit.
                    "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                    "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                    "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post

                      Total fiction. Obama printed and borrowed for stimulus.

                      He ran huge Quantative Easing, and added more than 800 billion dollars to the deficit.
                      So US produced shale and oil gas didn’t account for 25% more of the US’ energy use at the end of Obama’s tenure than at the beginning?

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by HenryFitz View Post
                        Hunt is the remain candidate. He would represent some sort of continuity with May. Hard to know how he'd do in a run-off with Javid. He was the scrooge in charge of the NHS so lots of people loathe him.
                        Is forgotten about him. He's a bit of a wet blanket though - and I think the party membership will look for a hardliner on Brexit. Hence Gove coudc be their man, as he can flop either way - that's before you consider how ruthless he is.
                        Please support Milford Hospice. Click here to donate.

                        Comment


                          So back to Brexit :
                          3 options now clearly emerging :
                          1. May's deal or variant (which looks like it may be defeated)
                          2. No deal Brexit
                          3. About turn and stay in the EU.

                          I think the smart money is on 1 or 3.

                          Fwiw I think the EU would welcome a UK decision not to leave with open arms. in classic EU political solution mode, They may wish to alter article 50 mechanisms after the Brexit balloon has either flown or burst.

                          What is definitely going to be 'interesting' is the machinations of the Uk political system and media, to help our hinder bringing about a conclusion that the vast majority of the ruling classes know is best for the UK I.e. BINO or Stay in EU, and which the majority of the electorate now also probably agree with.

                          of course there are some bad actors in this drama, namely, Russia, elements of Trumps America, & a few smaller nasty elements in the far right (&left) in the UK itself and others.

                          Anyway it's all in play now...
                          Last edited by Daithi; 9th-December-2018, 22:58.
                          ____________________________________________
                          Munster were great when they were Munster.

                          alas they are just north munster now.......
                          ____________________________________________

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post

                            So US produced shale and oil gas didn’t account for 25% more of the US’ energy use at the end of Obama’s tenure than at the beginning?
                            We’re way off topic, but it didn’t fund the stimulus. Classic cyclical Keysian measures - tax reduction, printing money, borrowing, spending - did that. All of which were available to the UK.

                            "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                            "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                            "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                            Comment


                              So back to Brexit :

                              perhaps if they can run off a 2nd referendum or a BINO (Brexit in Name Only) solution before the effects of Keynesian economic measures in the US, UK & EU wear off, perhaps they can get save this marriage?!?

                              answers on a post card please....


                              p.s. In the general wider world, imho, we are at the end of a ~ 10 year bull run on equities, and ~8 year run on everything else, therefore I think it's vital they salvage this now before March, as in 2019, classic 3Rd year of a republican presidency, we're likely to see some of the causing conditions for the initial referendum result resurface e.g. stock market falls, drop in employment, drop in asset prices like property and alienation of the working class and less well off in the UK & throughout the EU & further afield.
                              ____________________________________________
                              Munster were great when they were Munster.

                              alas they are just north munster now.......
                              ____________________________________________

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Daithi View Post
                                So back to Brexit :

                                perhaps if they can run off a 2nd referendum or a BINO (Brexit in Name Only) solution before the effects of Keynesian economic measures in the US, UK & EU wear off, perhaps they can get save this marriage?!?

                                answers on a post card please....


                                p.s. In the general wider world, imho, we are at the end of a ~ 10 year bull run on equities, and ~8 year run on everything else, therefore I think it's vital they salvage this now before March, as in 2019, classic 3Rd year of a republican presidency, we're likely to see some of the causing conditions for the initial referendum result resurface e.g. stock market falls, drop in employment, drop in asset prices like property and alienation of the working class and less well off in the UK & throughout the EU & further afield.
                                I'd tend to agree. Judging by the standards of the last 50 years we're due a recession.

                                Uncertainty for me is two fold. 2008 came a little early due to the banking crash, and recovery has been a bit slow, and I wonder if that's shifted the cycles? Some early indicators already kicking in though.
                                "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                                "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                                "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                                Comment

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