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US Presidential Election - Indecision 2016

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    Originally posted by Drick View Post
    This is some expert trolling from The Plastic Paddy. Bravo.
    No trolling, simply trying to work through why so many millions have been seduced by the likes of Trump and Farage. It is not only down to their appeal, it is also down to the politicians/ establishment getting their communication spectacularly wrong, IMHO.


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      Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post
      No trolling, simply trying to work through why so many millions have been seduced by the likes of Trump and Farage. It is not only down to their appeal, it is also down to the politicians/ establishment getting their communication spectacularly wrong, IMHO.


      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
      Same reason why so many were seduced by FF and Bertie
      Stand up and fight

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        Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post
        I know it is correct because I have experienced my kids having raised temperatures and being unwell after vaccination. No amount of expertise is going to change my mind on something which I have personally experienced at first hand. And that is at the core of the "experts" issue.


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        I'm not trying to have a go at you (or call you "stupid") but this is the kind of logic that keeps homeopaths in business. I took two drops of this stuff three times a day and my cold went away within a couple of days, therefore my personal experience tells me that this stuff gets rid of colds.
        Tis but a scratch.

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          Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post
          No trolling, simply trying to work through why so many millions have been seduced by the likes of Trump and Farage. It is not only down to their appeal, it is also down to the politicians/ establishment getting their communication spectacularly wrong, IMHO.


          Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
          The problem is that the effort required to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude greater than that required to create it. This is particularly when people really want to believe the BS as a) in the case of vaccines where parents dealing with devastating diagnoses for their kids have something concrete to pin the blame on and b) in the case of Trump, people are ma-hoo-ssive racists & are delighted that someone is saying out loud what they've been thinking for ages
          Dublin Northeast FF free since Feb 27th 2011

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            US Presidential Election - Indecision 2016

            Originally posted by mr chips View Post
            I'm not trying to have a go at you (or call you "stupid") but this is the kind of logic that keeps homeopaths in business. I took two drops of this stuff three times a day and my cold went away within a couple of days, therefore my personal experience tells me that this stuff gets rid of colds.
            There are a hell of a lot of homeopaths in business Mr Chips. Which is the essence of my ramblings on "experts". In this age of completely unprecedented access to "information" everyone believes that they know something to be true because they have personal experience of it via the tinterweb. EDIT and, to be honest, when it comes to your kids objectivity goes out of the window and instinct takes over. Their kids being a bit under the weather is a perfectly acceptable by product, for most parents, of protection from illness. For us the flu jab is a step too far, if either kid was asthmatic then we might think differently, but, call us selfish, but we don't think our kids need to be exposed to something that is more about protecting others than them. But we are not the people that matter in any discussion about distrust of "experts".


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            Last edited by the plastic paddy; 12-January-2017, 14:55.

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              Yes, there are a lot of homeopaths in business. I'm f*cking related to a few. Many of them, my in-laws included, are well meaning individuals who genuinely believe in what they do. I've lost count of the number of times I've been offered a sugar pill which will "clear up that chest infection". I always refuse, because I know that if I did take it just to humour them, once the chest infection has eventually cleared up, it would always and forever be attributed to the goddam sugar pill, and not the fact that chest infections usually clear up anyway. Received wisdom and non-evidence-based beliefs are usually self-reinforcing, but I'm sure you've heard the term "correlation is not causation".

              The fact that lots of homeopaths are in business, and that there are lots of people who swear by them, does not lend the basic premise of homeopathy any legitimacy whatsoever. Likewise, the fact that sometimes children get sick for a few days after getting a vaccine, or that some children's diagnoses of autism were made after they had received the MMR, does not mean that the vaccines are a bad thing or that the MMR causes autism.
              Tis but a scratch.

              Comment


                Originally posted by blackwarrior View Post
                Bump.


                And, interesting comments by Shepard Smith of Fox News on Trump's treatment of CNN:

                Wow, that's a surprise from Fox. I wonder have the GOP got the knives out for Trump?
                When things go wrong, blame McGahan

                Comment


                  Originally posted by mr chips View Post
                  Yes, there are a lot of homeopaths in business. I'm f*cking related to a few. Many of them, my in-laws included, are well meaning individuals who genuinely believe in what they do. I've lost count of the number of times I've been offered a sugar pill which will "clear up that chest infection". I always refuse, because I know that if I did take it just to humour them, once the chest infection has eventually cleared up, it would always and forever be attributed to the goddam sugar pill, and not the fact that chest infections usually clear up anyway. Received wisdom and non-evidence-based beliefs are usually self-reinforcing, but I'm sure you've heard the term "correlation is not causation".

                  The fact that lots of homeopaths are in business, and that there are lots of people who swear by them, does not lend the basic premise of homeopathy any legitimacy whatsoever. Likewise, the fact that sometimes children get sick for a few days after getting a vaccine, or that some children's diagnoses of autism were made after they had received the MMR, does not mean that the vaccines are a bad thing or that the MMR causes autism.
                  You misunderstood me, I wasn't saying homeopathy is a good thing, I was saying it is a popular thing. And it is that popularity that goes someway towards explaining the rejection of "expert" opinion that we are experiencing, IMHO. Humans have always been susceptible to the cheap and easy answer, they have also always been susceptible to flattery. But that doesn't tell the whole story in this rejection of "experts" that has resulted in Trump. The wilful stupidity that the late, great Bill Hicks lampooned when the waffle waitress asked" what you reading for?" has transmogrified into millions voting for a lunatic. Finding a way to counter the Trump stupidity has to start from understanding what it is that people rejected to vote for him.


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                    Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post
                    Do we really need to vaccinate the population against mumps? I don't see the need for it myself. It just smacks of doing something because we can, not because we should. It also serves to discredit the validity of population wide vaccination against diseases that really are life changing. That said, the vaccinations themselves are less of an issue, as far as I am concerned, than the supercilious manner in which they are promoted and the affect this has on our view of "experts".


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                    Mumps can be quite life-changing. Severe side-effects include deafness, sterility and even death - I certainly recall at least one fatality of a young boy. The drastically reduced incidence following mass vaccination means that we can forget just how bad the outcomes of these illnesses can be.

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                      Originally posted by B.A. View Post
                      Wow, that's a surprise from Fox. I wonder have the GOP got the knives out for Trump?
                      Think that penny is dropping that GOP really, REALLY, cannot control him - because he cannot control himself. The smart ones, like Lindsay Graham,John McCain, even Ayn Rand believer Rand Paul, see that by the time he is finished, almost certainly sectioned/impeached for psychiatric offences or being found running his businesses himself, the GOP will be over as a party of credibility. They thought that taking control of all three branches of government would allow ''deficit control'' aka cutting social security and Medicare, and more lavish tax cuts for the wealthy, but this guy really is a loose cannon - literally (word used correctly for once, because he will erupt in an explosion). Also Fox and their Valdemort Rupert see that ceding the ground to Trumps preferred social media clowns may sideline them.
                      P.S.Shout out to Vicente Fox.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post
                        No trolling, simply trying to work through why so many millions have been seduced by the likes of Trump and Farage. It is not only down to their appeal, it is also down to the politicians/ establishment getting their communication spectacularly wrong, IMHO.


                        Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                        I don't disagree on the communication point, but it's also the case that a lot of them are really ****ing stupid.

                        Persuading really stupid people that you have their best interests at heart is necessary at this point, but anyone who voted for Trump is a ****ing idiot.

                        I accept that we can't tell them so. But this isn't about the liberal establishment being high and mighty. It's about stupid people who don't realise they're stupid, and combine that with thin skins, a persecution complex, a completely ill informed view of the world and a propensity to vote for any authoritarian who pats them on the head.
                        "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                        "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                        "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

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                          Reckon Joe Biden would have handed Trump his ass. He would have energised the Obama coalition, because they worked so well together; would not have had the issues of truth, veracity and credibility that Clinton sweated out through her pores; would not have had her sense of entitlement; and instead of engaging with Chump, would have laughed at him and poked him until he exploded. Joe is a wily old fox, and could have said he was in for one term only. Joe and Elizabeth Warren - winning ticket.

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                            Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post
                            I don't disagree on the communication point, but it's also the case that a lot of them are really ****ing stupid.

                            Persuading really stupid people that you have their best interests at heart is necessary at this point, but anyone who voted for Trump is a ****ing idiot.

                            I accept that we can't tell them so. But this isn't about the liberal establishment being high and mighty. It's about stupid people who don't realise they're stupid, and combine that with thin skins, a persecution complex, a completely ill informed view of the world and a propensity to vote for any authoritarian who pats them on the head.
                            Really recommend reading Joe Baigent, journalist from poor west Virginia stock, who saw through the way his people were conned into voting against their own interests - ''Deer Hunting for Jesus''.

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                              Originally posted by isola ciarrai View Post
                              Think that penny is dropping that GOP really, REALLY, cannot control him - because he cannot control himself. The smart ones, like Lindsay Graham,John McCain, even Ayn Rand believer Rand Paul, see that by the time he is finished, almost certainly sectioned/impeached for psychiatric offences or being found running his businesses himself, the GOP will be over as a party of credibility. They thought that taking control of all three branches of government would allow ''deficit control'' aka cutting social security and Medicare, and more lavish tax cuts for the wealthy, but this guy really is a loose cannon - literally (word used correctly for once, because he will erupt in an explosion). Also Fox and their Valdemort Rupert see that ceding the ground to Trumps preferred social media clowns may sideline them.
                              P.S.Shout out to Vicente Fox.

                              Hmm. Xenephobic demagogue put into power by establishment figures who believed that they could control him. I'm sure that rings a bell......
                              "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                              "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                              "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by isola ciarrai View Post
                                Really recommend reading Joe Baigent, journalist from poor west Virginia stock, who saw through the way his people were conned into voting against their own interests - ''Deer Hunting for Jesus''.

                                I'll give that a read, thanks. I'm probably over stating - I know that there's a lot of very legitimate disaffection out there, and a degree of nihilism about telling the establishment to **** off. I just struggle to understand how so many people go out to vote for people who at best don't give a **** about them and at worst actively hate them.
                                "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                                "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                                "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

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