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    #31
    Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post
    People were having bigger families when there were no "incentives". And the poorer they were the bigger they were.
    People were, but that was due to hedging against the high rate of infant mortality, requiring hands to work the land, and the church "banning" contraception and abortion.

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      #32
      If they did get rid of children's allowance, and birth rates dropped, presumably there would be less women leaving the workplace which was discussed in the news this week meaning less new opportunities for young people in the workforce who could leave the country. Would be interesting to see the long term impact. Could well have a worse impact on the country in the long run than any short term gain to childless adults
      "Some people don't know their easy lives... I wouldn't be so ungrateful" - Fiacre Ryan - #AutismAndMe

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        #33
        Originally posted by lilleexile View Post
        Nice theory, but where would the capitalists get their consumers from? The "system" subsidises children because those children will grow up to become consumers. You dont have to be a worker to buy a 51" television.
        You import them. Labour can be imported like any other commodity. Folks are dying trying to reach Sicily every day. As an added benefit it would make our island more ethnically diverse and probably its population better lookin.
        I believe that all government is evil, and that trying to improve it is largely a waste of time.
        HL Mencken

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          #34
          Child benefits are designed to ameliorate the effects of cyclical poverty.

          The notion that they incentivise reproduction is facile nonsense. We've had these structures for decades, and birth rates are down across the board. Anecdotal "we all know someone who.." Is not a basis for public policy.

          It's well established that early years intervention is vital to break cycles of poverty. It may be wasted on some, but if it works for some others then the costs are offset by the production of more functional and contributing members of society.

          The structures we're talking about are proven in their effect, if not in their efficiency.

          Everything else thrown around in this discussion is, in comparison, empty rhetoric.
          "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

          "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


          "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

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            #35
            Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post
            Child benefits are designed to ameliorate the effects of cyclical poverty.no they are universal

            The notion that they incentivise reproduction is facile nonsense. We've had these structures for decades, and birth rates are down across the board. Anecdotal "we all know someone who.." Is not a basis for public policy.we are not talking about incentives, rather the theft of resources from one sector (those without offspring) to subsidise the freely made choices of others.

            It's well established that early years intervention is vital to break cycles of poverty. It may be wasted on some, but if it works for some others then the costs are offset by the production of more functional and contributing members of society. again there are much fairer and more efficient ways to achieve this end.

            The structures we're talking about are proven in their effect, if not in their efficiencyI doubt that s so but if you have the data Ill take your word .

            Everything else thrown around in this discussion is, in comparison, empty rhetoric.
            ?what does that even mean? Discussion of how much taxation is appropriate and the ends to which it is used are somehow off limits?
            I believe that all government is evil, and that trying to improve it is largely a waste of time.
            HL Mencken

            Comment


              #36
              Originally posted by Eamo View Post
              ?what does that even mean? Discussion of how much taxation is appropriate and the ends to which it is used are somehow off limits?
              You are right. It is a discussion that should be had. Should the children's allowance be limited to those who need it and the cash goes towards much needed policing for instance? How about scrapping the zero VAT rate on fillet steak and caviar?

              Comment


                #37
                Perhaps we could start by looking at the theft of monies facillitated by successive irish governments for the benefit of the likes of google etc
                So I walked as day was dawning
                Where small birds sang and leaves were falling
                Where we once watched the row boats landing
                By the broad majestic shannon

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                  #38
                  Originally posted by Eamo View Post
                  ?what does that even mean? Discussion of how much taxation is appropriate and the ends to which it is used are somehow off limits?
                  Further up the tread you described these benefits as a "tax incentive to procreate". My point is that if such a thing is true, it should be demonstrable in accelerating birth rates. If not, then it's evidently not true, and therefore empty rhetoric.

                  The question of who subsidises whom is only pertinent in a hyper-individualist world view. One that, as we've discussed before, I feel ignores the interdependencies of a complex society.
                  "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                  "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                  "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by Eamo View Post
                    We could start by abolishing childrens' allowance and other tax incentives to procreate.
                    Originally posted by Eamo View Post
                    we are not talking about incentives, rather the theft of resources...
                    You clearly were talking about it in terms of an incentive.

                    What are the fairer and more efficient ways to ensure children don't get stuck in a poverty cycle?
                    "It’s not the team you support, it’s the club you should support. The team on the pitch will ebb and flow because that’s the nature of sport. No team has ever been successful decade on decade. The club has the history and that’s the passion you should have."

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by busby View Post
                      Few things on this horrific thing:

                      Firstly, Irish youth culture is a bit rotten. I really noticed it my first time back in Ireland after a year in Canada when in a supremacs in ordinary Town at school lunch time. I couldn't get over the degenerates around me, or that I was stuck in the same ****e myself not long ago. You don't see that in other countries, UK aside. Irish young lads on their own are perfectly normal human beings, but put them in a group and they have worse behaviour than adolescent apes. I wonder what the explanation is.

                      Secondly, Carrigaline is a horrible town where many instances not as severe as this but in the same realm happen. I'm mystified as to why anyone would choose to live there. Have had many bad experiences of the place with both teenagers and adults. I sadly wasn't surprised when I heard this had happened there. Maybe it will drive community leaders to tackle whatever the hell is wrong in the place because this just wouldn't happen in the vast majority of other communities. It's hardly a social blackspot either.
                      It is. God knows why, but it is. Crosshaven, which is still a fishing village at heart, should be rougher, but isn't. Passage should be way worse, but isn't. Carrigaline has it all, but is still just nasty. The Mrs. reminded me when this came up that I'd stopped a car to run some youngsters hopping on one solitary young fella who wasn't quite right; I'd forgotten all about it, but it's reflective of the town. Never, ever liked the place; I have friends from there, but they were definitely in spite of their hometown, rather than because of it.
                      Ceterum censeo INM irrumandum esse.

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post
                        Further up the tread you described these benefits as a "tax incentive to procreate". My point is that if such a thing is true, it should be demonstrable in accelerating birth rates. If not, then it's evidently not true, and therefore empty rhetoric.

                        The question of who subsidises whom is only pertinent in a hyper-individualist world view. One that, as we've discussed before, I feel ignores the interdependencies of a complex society.
                        But birth rates are accelerating, BB, in Ireland and the UK.

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                          #42
                          Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post
                          But birth rates are accelerating, BB, in Ireland and the UK.
                          Not to my knowledge PP birth rates are dropping as far as I know?
                          Excellence is hard to keep quite - Sherrie Coale

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                            #43
                            Originally posted by McCloud View Post
                            Not to my knowledge PP birth rates are dropping as far as I know?
                            We're at replacement rate, IIRC.

                            If you can't bate 'em, breed 'em. :D
                            Ceterum censeo INM irrumandum esse.

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                              #44
                              We have a very small population here. I'd like to see it grow. We seem to export the cream of our youth to other countries who benefit from their skills. It would be a start to try and reverse that.
                              So I walked as day was dawning
                              Where small birds sang and leaves were falling
                              Where we once watched the row boats landing
                              By the broad majestic shannon

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Originally posted by Cougar Moon View Post
                                We have a very small population here. I'd like to see it grow. We seem to export the cream of our youth to other countries who benefit from their skills. It would be a start to try and reverse that.
                                Hmmmmm...
                                Ceterum censeo INM irrumandum esse.

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