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    Originally posted by Jackie Brown View Post
    Was it a celebration of the Black and Tans?
    Technically yes. The Black and Tans were members of the RIC, as were the Auxiliaries, they were just specially recruited and armed and operated independently.

    Even if you accept that this wasn't intended to be a commemoration of the military thugs recruited post-1919, it was still intended as a commemoration of the force that were largely responsible for the Bloody Sunday shootings in Croke Park.

    A fairly monumentally stupid idea to hold any sort of commemorative event of this fashion.
    "It’s not the team you support, it’s the club you should support. The team on the pitch will ebb and flow because that’s the nature of sport. No team has ever been successful decade on decade. The club has the history and that’s the passion you should have."

    Comment


      Originally posted by Jenta View Post

      Technically yes. The Black and Tans were members of the RIC, as were the Auxiliaries, they were just specially recruited and armed and operated independently.

      Even if you accept that this wasn't intended to be a commemoration of the military thugs recruited post-1919, it was still intended as a commemoration of the force that were largely responsible for the Bloody Sunday shootings in Croke Park.

      A fairly monumentally stupid idea to hold any sort of commemorative event of this fashion.
      Technically it was a commemoration of the RIC not a celebration of the Black and Tans. Sad how it's been twisted.

      My family had members killed and burnt out of their home in Cavan because my Great Grandfather went to France. The vermin who did this were seen as freedom fighters and held on a pedestal by the Irish state.

      I assume it's RIC bad, IRA good. Both were Irish men but it's the victors who write the history books. Maybe Ireland as a nation isn't as mature as it portrays.
      Commemorate Nevin Spence here -
      http://www.mycharity.ie/event/munste..._nevin_spence/

      Comment


        well said Jackie... the past few weeks have shown us up.

        Comment


          Originally posted by Jackie Brown View Post
          Technically it was a commemoration of the RIC not a celebration of the Black and Tans. Sad how it's been twisted.

          My family had members killed and burnt out of their home in Cavan because my Great Grandfather went to France. The vermin who did this were seen as freedom fighters and held on a pedestal by the Irish state.

          I assume it's RIC bad, IRA good. Both were Irish men but it's the victors who write the history books. Maybe Ireland as a nation isn't as mature as it portrays.
          I think we're still a relatively young nation grappling with the sins of the past. Irishmen who served in WWI are considered in a far different light now than they were even 20 years ago. It's an extremely complicated area and the last week has made me realise that we're still an awful long way from a united Ireland.

          But that being said, the idea of holding an official state commemoration for the RIC was obviously ridiculous from the outset. The conversation was twisted towards "but de black an tans!!1!" but the actions of the RIC/DMP on Bloody Sunday were enough to ensure this idea should never have been considered. There's growing up as a nation and then there's just going beyond sense to try and prove a mad point. I can't see an official state commemoration for the IRA lives lost in the North after partition being considered by the UK. I say all this as someone who's great grandfather was an RIC member too.
          "It’s not the team you support, it’s the club you should support. The team on the pitch will ebb and flow because that’s the nature of sport. No team has ever been successful decade on decade. The club has the history and that’s the passion you should have."

          Comment


            Originally posted by Jackie Brown View Post
            Technically it was a commemoration of the RIC not a celebration of the Black and Tans. Sad how it's been twisted.

            My family had members killed and burnt out of their home in Cavan because my Great Grandfather went to France. The vermin who did this were seen as freedom fighters and held on a pedestal by the Irish state.

            I assume it's RIC bad, IRA good. Both were Irish men but it's the victors who write the history books. Maybe Ireland as a nation isn't as mature as it portrays.
            Maybe don't assume that.
            Tis but a scratch.

            Comment


              Originally posted by mr chips View Post

              Maybe don't assume that.
              Fair enough, that was a bit emotional. It is something I feel strongly about, I've visited Killashandra and the site of the family farm, it was a terrible time but it was Irishmen on both sides. The people who instantly refer to the Black and Tans are just attempting to muddy the waters. The RIC was an Irish police force, of Irishmen. The freedom fighting victors seen as heroes and martyrs for the poetic cause. The losers besmirched and airbrushed from history even 100yrs later.

              Will the same happen to the RUC when Irish reunification happens?

              Commemorate Nevin Spence here -
              http://www.mycharity.ie/event/munste..._nevin_spence/

              Comment


                Originally posted by Jackie Brown View Post

                Fair enough, that was a bit emotional. It is something I feel strongly about, I've visited Killashandra and the site of the family farm, it was a terrible time but it was Irishmen on both sides. The people who instantly refer to the Black and Tans are just attempting to muddy the waters. The RIC was an Irish police force, of Irishmen. The freedom fighting victors seen as heroes and martyrs for the poetic cause. The losers besmirched and airbrushed from history even 100yrs later.

                Will the same happen to the RUC IF Irish reunification happens?

                Fixed that for you. To be honest the Irish state can not afford the cost of supporting Northern Ireland so I'd imagine such a result is not a fore gone conclusion.
                Excellence is hard to keep quite - Sherrie Coale

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Jackie Brown View Post

                  Fair enough, that was a bit emotional. It is something I feel strongly about, I've visited Killashandra and the site of the family farm, it was a terrible time but it was Irishmen on both sides. The people who instantly refer to the Black and Tans are just attempting to muddy the waters. The RIC was an Irish police force, of Irishmen. The freedom fighting victors seen as heroes and martyrs for the poetic cause. The losers besmirched and airbrushed from history even 100yrs later.

                  Will the same happen to the RUC when Irish reunification happens?

                  Jackie I don't know the answer to your question but I hope not. I was angered by the extent to which this became a black and white issue this week and how it became about Black and Tans so fast. Even today I heard ridiculous radio panellists talking about "the mood of the nation" not being listened to, and how the "vast majority" of the people were against it.

                  The RIC had been around for 80 years when James O'Brien, an Limerick-born unarmed constable was shot dead outside Dublin Castle. He was the first victim of the 1916 Rising, a violent rebellion which ultimately led to Irish independence. In my opinion, O'Brien and others should be remembered.

                  Remembering / commemoration / Black and Tans all became conflated this week. We're the poorer for what has happened.
                  "I don't believe in fairytales," O'Connell once told me, "even though it feels like I've been lucky enough to live through a few. However it ends, I'll feel lucky."
                  Donald McRae, Guardian Rugby, October 2015

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by McCloud View Post

                    Fixed that for you. To be honest the Irish state can not afford the cost of supporting Northern Ireland so I'd imagine such a result is not a fore gone conclusion.
                    It will happen. I understand the finance issue but it would be a gradual transition and the EU love a project. Give it 20yrs. Northern Ireland is not a natural creation, the inevitable will happen.
                    Commemorate Nevin Spence here -
                    http://www.mycharity.ie/event/munste..._nevin_spence/

                    Comment


                      I was struck by Munsterfans mostly steering clear of this matter this week. Good to read some measured and considerate comment here.

                      I don't know much about D.M. Leeson but I do recommend THE BLACK & TANS British Police and Auxiliaries in the Irish War of Independence, OXFORD, 2012
                      Last edited by ustix; 10-January-2020, 19:00.
                      Gwan Joe!!

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Jackie Brown View Post
                        Technically it was a commemoration of the RIC not a celebration of the Black and Tans. Sad how it's been twisted.

                        My family had members killed and burnt out of their home in Cavan because my Great Grandfather went to France. The vermin who did this were seen as freedom fighters and held on a pedestal by the Irish state.

                        I assume it's RIC bad, IRA good. Both were Irish men but it's the victors who write the history books. Maybe Ireland as a nation isn't as mature as it portrays.
                        Just wanted to add to my earlier reply, as I was a bit short of time when I posted -

                        Among my forebears were many who fought in the War of Independence and then in the Civil War, including one of my grandfathers. My other grandfather served in the Home Guard, and several from his parent's generation fought and died in the trenches during WW1, while his brother (for whom my father is named) was shot down and killed in WW2. I mention this to hopefully show I have no axe to grind with regard to anyone's identity or heritage.

                        What happened to your family held echoes for me, albeit from a different perspective. I was born in Belfast and probably would have grown up there, but our family moved south when I was still small. A large part of the reason for this is that we'd been living in a mixed part of north Belfast at the time, but my parents were warned twice to "get out before being burned out". The vermin who did that were seen as defenders of the union and were equally acclaimed for their actions. Moreover, those actions were constantly and zealously encouraged by the man who went on to co-found Ulster Resistance before eventually becoming the First Minister of the NI Assembly. His bitterness and contempt inform his political heirs to this day.

                        Nevertheless, we can't use our own victimhood as a springboard to castigate others. I'd say most of us, especially those who live in NI or have connections here, have either been touched by the events of the past and/or the recent conflict, or else know someone who was directly affected. I can only imagine how terrifying it would have been for my parents, who were not from Belfast themselves and had no family support networks around them, to be faced with that sort of threat. But my upbringing was not coloured by handed-down resentment or bitterness about it, which I never appreciated until later in life.

                        In my view, it's uneven at best to characterise Ireland as being immature when Stormont has just spent three years in stasis because of corruption and intransigence and when Westminster has spent even longer than that gouging its own eyes out. It looks like the impasse in NI may finally have been overcome, but this absolutely will not last if we keep using casually dismissive, even scornful language about one another.

                        On this somewhat confected controversy, I'll echo what Jenta said - even if for some reason one chose to set aside the later creation and brutality of the Black & Tans/Auxiliaries (and what would be the grounds for doing so?), the truth is that ultimately the RIC/DMP was, unlike police forces in Britain at the time, a paramilitary force much more akin to what the RUC* and the B Specials became in NI than the model followed by the Garda Síochána. It was a tool of empire which was responsible for the first Bloody Sunday massacre - the murder of innocent civilians as an enraged act of revenge on behalf of the crown, a key foundational moment in the history of the republic. It was daft for this commemoration to be planned the way it was because it was inevitable that there would be a backlash against it.

                        *NB - in case anyone wasn't aware, the RUC was as a collective awarded the George Cross at the time of its transition to the PSNI.
                        Tis but a scratch.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by mr chips View Post

                          Just wanted to add to my earlier reply, as I was a bit short of time when I posted -

                          Among my forebears were many who fought in the War of Independence and then in the Civil War, including one of my grandfathers. My other grandfather served in the Home Guard, and several from his parent's generation fought and died in the trenches during WW1, while his brother (for whom my father is named) was shot down and killed in WW2. I mention this to hopefully show I have no axe to grind with regard to anyone's identity or heritage.

                          What happened to your family held echoes for me, albeit from a different perspective. I was born in Belfast and probably would have grown up there, but our family moved south when I was still small. A large part of the reason for this is that we'd been living in a mixed part of north Belfast at the time, but my parents were warned twice to "get out before being burned out". The vermin who did that were seen as defenders of the union and were equally acclaimed for their actions. Moreover, those actions were constantly and zealously encouraged by the man who went on to co-found Ulster Resistance before eventually becoming the First Minister of the NI Assembly. His bitterness and contempt inform his political heirs to this day.

                          Nevertheless, we can't use our own victimhood as a springboard to castigate others. I'd say most of us, especially those who live in NI or have connections here, have either been touched by the events of the past and/or the recent conflict, or else know someone who was directly affected. I can only imagine how terrifying it would have been for my parents, who were not from Belfast themselves and had no family support networks around them, to be faced with that sort of threat. But my upbringing was not coloured by handed-down resentment or bitterness about it, which I never appreciated until later in life.

                          In my view, it's uneven at best to characterise Ireland as being immature when Stormont has just spent three years in stasis because of corruption and intransigence and when Westminster has spent even longer than that gouging its own eyes out. It looks like the impasse in NI may finally have been overcome, but this absolutely will not last if we keep using casually dismissive, even scornful language about one another.

                          On this somewhat confected controversy, I'll echo what Jenta said - even if for some reason one chose to set aside the later creation and brutality of the Black & Tans/Auxiliaries (and what would be the grounds for doing so?), the truth is that ultimately the RIC/DMP was, unlike police forces in Britain at the time, a paramilitary force much more akin to what the RUC* and the B Specials became in NI than the model followed by the Garda Síochána. It was a tool of empire which was responsible for the first Bloody Sunday massacre - the murder of innocent civilians as an enraged act of revenge on behalf of the crown, a key foundational moment in the history of the republic. It was daft for this commemoration to be planned the way it was because it was inevitable that there would be a backlash against it.

                          *NB - in case anyone wasn't aware, the RUC was as a collective awarded the George Cross at the time of its transition to the PSNI.
                          Chips for First Minister

                          Jokes aside, excellent post.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by mr chips View Post

                            *NB - in case anyone wasn't aware, the RUC was as a collective awarded the George Cross at the time of its transition to the PSNI.
                            Excellent post Chips, but what's your point with this comment?
                            Commemorate Nevin Spence here -
                            http://www.mycharity.ie/event/munste..._nevin_spence/

                            Comment


                              You asked whether the RUC would be "besmirched and airbrushed from history".
                              Tis but a scratch.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by mr chips View Post
                                You asked whether the RUC would be "besmirched and airbrushed from history".
                                I wasn't referring to by the UK, I meant in the context of a United Ireland.

                                Commemorate Nevin Spence here -
                                http://www.mycharity.ie/event/munste..._nevin_spence/

                                Comment

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