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    #16
    Choice has nothing to do with it Whimpersnap. Too many pubs and high costs means low profit margins here. So they created the vintners organisation. The rest of my post would be potentially liable. Lets just say they are influencing pricing
    My computer thinks I'm gay
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      #17
      Low profits? The gross margin on alcohol alone in pubs would be north of 60%. Soft drinks 100+%. There are lots of good pubs and publicans here, there are an awful lot of crap pubs with lazy owners / staff who know little or nothing about the products that they retail. Pubs are retail businesses with some of the least trained staff around.
      Gone are the days when you stuck in a tap and it sold, publicans and their staff have to now sell the stuff, very few are doing that. The growth in popularity in the so called craft beer sector and the pubs that support it should be an indication of what is required by publicans everywhere. Get off the lazy cartel with one or two big players.
      A lion online, a lamb at home.

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        #18
        The gross margin gets very quickly eaten up by high costs, wages, rates etc. An awful lot of people have no interest in the craft beer sector and the sort of punters that sector attracts
        My computer thinks I'm gay
        What's the difference anyway
        When all the people do all day
        Is stare into a phone

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          #19
          Originally posted by sewa View Post
          Choice has nothing to do with it Whimpersnap. Too many pubs and high costs means low profit margins here. So they created the vintners organisation. The rest of my post would be potentially liable. Lets just say they are influencing pricing
          Well too many pubs is another aspect of choice, but it's unfeasible that pubs offering 20 beers on draught doesn't impact on price.

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            #20
            Originally posted by sewa View Post
            The gross margin gets very quickly eaten up by high costs, wages, rates etc. An awful lot of people have no interest in the craft beer sector and the sort of punters that sector attracts
            I'm not suggesting that every pub should stock craft beer and / or target the craft beer sector.

            I'm saying that in my experience the pubs that do operate within this sector have well trained staff, an interest in what they are selling, organise events such as visits to breweries, bbqs etc, have tastings, in short they engage their customers.

            Your average publican couldn't careless about what comes out of the tap/bottle or where it come from as long as you buy it. Publicans in general need to learn about customer service.
            A lion online, a lamb at home.

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              #21
              Originally posted by whimpersnap View Post
              Well too many pubs is another aspect of choice, but it's unfeasible that pubs offering 20 beers on draught doesn't impact on price.

              It doesn't. You adjust your stock requirements for each beer according to anticipated demand, but your price is set by a wholesaler and is largely non-negotiable regardless of volume.

              They key for Wetherspoons pricing in the UK is their buying power, which is why they focussed on real ale. They can get far better leverage on price with small breweries than with the big players. Though even the latter fall in line at a certain tipping point.

              The key price driver in the Irish system is the near monopolistic position of Diageo as a supplier.
              "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

              "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


              "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

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                #22
                Originally posted by 5eight View Post
                I'm not suggesting that every pub should stock craft beer and / or target the craft beer sector.

                I'm saying that in my experience the pubs that do operate within this sector have well trained staff, an interest in what they are selling, organise events such as visits to breweries, bbqs etc, have tastings, in short they engage their customers.

                Your average publican couldn't careless about what comes out of the tap/bottle or where it come from as long as you buy it. Publicans in general need to learn about customer service.
                I think that assumes that customers are after those things, to be honest. For a lot of pubs, the beer isn't really the product they're selling.

                You'd be amazed at the hostility that any sort of change can spark from regulars.
                "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

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                  #23
                  Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post
                  It doesn't. You adjust your stock requirements for each beer according to anticipated demand, but your price is set by a wholesaler and is largely non-negotiable regardless of volume.
                  And the wide range has no impact on spoilage, storage, transport, extra work, etc.? And selling both Heineken and Diageo is no more expensive than just selling Diageo? And that would remain the case if a large number of publicans went with one or the other, or third parties?

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                    #24
                    Originally posted by whimpersnap View Post
                    And the wide range has no impact on spoilage, storage, transport, extra work, etc.? And selling both Heineken and Diageo is no more expensive than just selling Diageo? And that would remain the case if a large number of publicans went with one or the other, or third parties?
                    Pretty much not, as you have an integrated supply chain with the macros. You don't take different deliveries from a range of producers etc. Storage reflects the overall volume demand, but again isn't equal. Of the 20 beers an Irish bar might carry (and that sounds like far too many) there's probably an 11 of one say next to 10 22s of Guinness in the cellar.

                    Wide range doesn't increase spoilage if you manage your stock properly, and it's not really any more work to sell a range of beers than the same volume of one beer.

                    The duplications in cost, effort, logistics etc have long been ironed out of the system by consolidation in the macros. Half the time, to be honest, you're not even really talking about different beers. When they stopped selling the lower strength Heineken in the UK, they just rebadged the Export as Heineken and then rebadged the non-Export strength stuff as Labatts Blue and slung it out the back door on a special.

                    The growth of the macros has been driven by the desire to eliminate exactly the sort of costs you're pointing to, and they've been pretty successful in doing it.
                    "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                    "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                    "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

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                      #25
                      http://www.tca.ie/EN/News--Publicati...Ombudsman.aspx

                      Have a butchers at this and then wonder why were the Vintners successfully sued, therein lies the reason why the price of a pint is the same in every pub in the town.
                      My computer thinks I'm gay
                      What's the difference anyway
                      When all the people do all day
                      Is stare into a phone

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                        #26
                        Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post
                        It would be a fair barometer of the local area.They generally reflect the lowest common denominator of the areas they serve at various times of the day and the week.

                        In London, the Wetherspoons on Whitehall, Marble Arch and in the City are good and cheap options, if a little cavernous.


                        The one on Tooting High Street is like an experiment in farming alkies to produce the smell of piss.
                        Seeing as some Munster supporters will be travelling to Glasgow this weekend, I'll share one experience from one of its satellites. A few years back I was in Airdrie for a few nights on a work trip. Having exhausted all of Airdrie's viable options for a place to drink over the first two nights, a small group of us decided to amble down the road towards Coatbridge, which turned out to be pretty grim. How grim? Well, as we passed the high-rise flats on our right, I did briefly wonder how great a temptation there might be for locals to leap from the top of it ...

                        Only two pubs were open. We entered the first, to find a gloomy place with an unpolished, bare concrete floor. It had room for about 200 people but was populated by a solitary punter fixated by the gaming machine in the far corner. Before I could voice any doubts, one lad had already placed an order, so we were here for a round. Despite standing at the far end of the bar from the toilets, the smell of piss gently wafted by as I ordered a whisky with a glass of water alongside. The latter was delivered not from a tap or a bottle, but by one of those multi-buttoned hose/gun-type mixer dispensers you sometimes see.

                        I tasted the whisky as another colleague asked the barman whether there was any other place to get a pint in the town. I then lifted my glass of water towards my mouth, only to recoil from a smell so rank as to mask the eau de latrine which lightly permeated the wider atmosphere. As I looked into my glass of "water" to see what was actually a slightly translucent liquid in which two small insects frantically doggie-paddled, I heard the barman's reply -

                        "Just that place across the road. But it's a bit shit."
                        Tis but a scratch.

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                          #27
                          Originally posted by sewa View Post
                          http://www.tca.ie/EN/News--Publicati...Ombudsman.aspx

                          Have a butchers at this and then wonder why were the Vintners successfully sued, therein lies the reason why the price of a pint is the same in every pub in the town.
                          There's cartel behaviour, but even without that you won't get price competition until there's a diversification of supplier base or someone gets a lever on one of the big brewers.

                          I remember my PubCo asking me to sell Steinlager in 1998 when they were charging me more wholesale than Wetherspoons were putting it out over the counter. Wetherspoons weren't being altruistic - they'd just bought a lot cheaper.

                          The price wars in supermarkets are funded by the suppliers and manufacturers who can't afford not to be on the shelves at Tesco.

                          As long as there's a myriad of small, independent pubs buying from a couple of huge suppliers, price competition won't really happen.
                          "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                          "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                          "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

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                            #28
                            Some pubs already tried Balla. Thats who complained to the competition authority in the first place.
                            My computer thinks I'm gay
                            What's the difference anyway
                            When all the people do all day
                            Is stare into a phone

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                              #29
                              Originally posted by sewa View Post
                              Some pubs already tried Balla. Thats who complained to the competition authority in the first place.
                              Wow. Not much chance of voting with your feet then. Amazes me that they get that sort of cohesion. Publicans in the UK are pretty ferociously competitive, even though they'll help each other out when they have shared interests.
                              "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                              "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                              "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Originally posted by whimpersnap View Post
                                On the price point, you'd never see a euro a pint here. Alcohol sale is a lot less regulated in England than it is here (Scotland is closer to Ireland). Off-licenses closing at 10, as I'm sure you know from Scotland, drives up the price of alcohol, as do our pretty high taxes, plus licensing laws for on-license places, high property/rental prices and the almost total domination of the market by two breweries.

                                Wetherspoons are now making a couple of tentative steps into Dublin now, but they won't have half the pull they have in the UK because they won't have a market of 60 million people to work with. Even in Dublin, there are only a handful of places that don't serve Diageo or Heineken beer, and only one independent brewery chain of pubs (Porterhouse) - I'm open to correction on that though.

                                I quite like the model in Spain where bars will generally only serve one beer and you either like it or move somewhere else. It keeps the price low, but the cost of living there helps too. In Ireland, we like choice, so we'll tend to have a lot of beers available from different companies in every pub, and in commerce more choice almost always means higher prices.
                                We had a similar situation in Scotland in the 90's and 2000's with "house pubs" (such as Tennents & Scottish & Newcastle and Carling pubs) where if you wanted a Newcastle Brown your local wouldn't be Tennents only pub, most locals in Glasgow are "Free Houses" as in they take deliveries from many breweries as they are struggling to get folks in the door.

                                Personally, I put it down to self control, if you are gonna be an eeigit (sp) with alcohol then don't go to a place that it is happy hour all day!

                                These type of places need strong barmen (not muscles but ethics) to impliment sensible drinking, the barmaid that is making minimum wage does not care (even in the face of hefty Government fines)
                                Check out my blog - Taking the Epistle

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