Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Is Immigration the EU's Death Knell?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Is Immigration the EU's Death Knell?

    Interesting and very topical debate.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/dr-j...?utm_hp_ref=uk

    The immigration debate has, predictably, inspired hysteria on both sides of the argument. The anti-immigration lobby warns of social catastrophe if immigration were to remain unchecked. Europhiles of the Brussels variety threaten economic decline and possibly the very end of the EU if the principle of free movement were to be in any way diluted. As a Europhile of the non-Brussels variety, I too believe that the immigration issue threatens economic decline and a weakening of the EU. However, I believe that it will do so only if Brussels continues stubbornly to stick to its ideology, deaf to the reality of the deep concerns that are affecting a significant proportion of people.
    Please support Milford Hospice. Click here to donate.

    #2
    The second response has been one of ideology. The free movement of people is an essential component of the single market and must remain utterly inviolable. Why? The shape and nature of the single market is a political and bureaucratic construction subject to dispute, discussion, evolution and adaptation. Neither is it perfect. After decades it continues to retain huge gaping holes. The idea that if any limits at all were placed on immigration the whole single market would fall apart is laughable hyperbole


    I think that's incorrect, to be honest. It's not hyperbole at all. You can't have a free market for goods and capital and not allow people to move to where the jobs are.

    I think immigration is a massive issue for the EU. But then I'm increasingly sceptical about the view that the free movement of goods and capital are a good idea.
    "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

    "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


    "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

    Comment


      #3
      How does the EU stop it though? You can walk over the hills into Greece from such salubrious places like Afghanistan and Pakistan, you can row over from Africe to Italy. The Greeks are discussing putting land mines down which sounds ludicrous but you cant fence the place off
      My computer thinks I'm gay
      What's the difference anyway
      When all the people do all day
      Is stare into a phone

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by sewa View Post
        How does the EU stop it though? You can walk over the hills into Greece from such salubrious places like Afghanistan and Pakistan, you can row over from Africe to Italy. The Greeks are discussing putting land mines down which sounds ludicrous but you cant fence the place off
        I think he's talking more about the movement of people within the EU. The UK acquired something like half a million Polish residents in the decade after polish entry into the EU.

        With Romania, Bulgaria etc coming in, the UK press has been in a right froth. It's why Germany doesn't want Turkey in. There's still massive economic inequality between varying countries in the Union, and the movement of people that that's sparking is fairly unprecedented.
        "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

        "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


        "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

        Comment


          #5
          Germany is full of Turks and Kurds already, cant see that inflow stopping regardless
          My computer thinks I'm gay
          What's the difference anyway
          When all the people do all day
          Is stare into a phone

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by sewa View Post
            Germany is full of Turks and Kurds already, cant see that inflow stopping regardless
            It is, but that would be like Cameron trying to punt the British public the notion of an open border with Pakistan. Rightly or wrongly, it wouldn't go over well.
            "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

            "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


            "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post
              I think he's talking more about the movement of people within the EU. The UK acquired something like half a million Polish residents in the decade after polish entry into the EU.

              With Romania, Bulgaria etc coming in, the UK press has been in a right froth. It's why Germany doesn't want Turkey in. There's still massive economic inequality between varying countries in the Union, and the movement of people that that's sparking is fairly unprecedented.
              After accession in 2005, only Ireland, Sweden and UK allowed unrestricted immigration from the new accession states. The other member states looked at the economic situation and their capacity to absorb large numbers of new immigrants. Ireland had minimal debate on Nice2 ''Treaty'' except for Dermot Ahern calling Justin Barrett (remember him? Spoke and acted like a little old lady) a racist and xenophobe when he suggested that we would have 50,000 Poles here. Aherns figure was 15,000. We now know that we had somewhere between 155,000 (non-credible CSO figure for PPS) and 250,000 (Polish ambassador to Ireland). This was of course the apparent masterstroke of IBEC/Construction Industry Federation to 'keep lit, Patsy' with regard to our so-called boom. How? When a housing and construction boom becomes bubble-like, then there are limiting factors in normal economic times - availability of finance and labour costs. The euro zone looked after cheapish capital, with the likes of Kommerzbank, Landesbanks, etc pouring in what were obviously totally disproportionate sums to a small economy on the edge of Europe, something which our German masters fail to acknowledge now when having their hands around our throats for their cash. The other factor which would have limited the insane building speculation was the cost of labour, with brickies demanding and getting 2 euro a block. The accession states and the unlimited immigration from there flooded our labour market with cheap labour and plenty of it. The Netherlands, a country with a noble tradition of accepting people from all over (up to recent times) restricted Polish workers to 15,000 permits. That it, a country with a population three times that of Ireland, a vastly bigger economy and an already strong population mix held out for 15,000 but our ruling class knew better and allowed unrestricted access. Britain with a population almost 10 times that of Ireland had 500,000 Polish to our almost half that figure. Total madness and we are paying for it now.

              Comment


                #8
                The Dutch noble tradition was as usual naked self interest, they knew that to trade with companies you need to build a bond and language skills / understanding their culture are part of that. Import a couple of thousand people and you have aready made export market at the far side. Irish people assume they are an open liberal society because of what the drugs and brassers were legalised, they did it to tax it. Its still illegal to grow fields of weed but yeah you can sell it and we wont ask where it comes from
                My computer thinks I'm gay
                What's the difference anyway
                When all the people do all day
                Is stare into a phone

                Comment


                  #9
                  The British effectively 'won' the ideological battle on the nature of the EEC/EU, which had two factions - the elite Monnet-ists who wanted a 'deeper' EU (more and more competencies going upwards to supranational institutions all the time) and the sceptics who went for a 'wider' EU, and basically embarrassed the remainder with talk of 'reuniting a divided continent' and forcing the issue of bringing all of central and eastern Europe into the EU in one fell swoop, with a second rate access to funding.
                  The original Six were economically developed, homogenous nations, who took in two developed economies (UK and Denmark) and one underdeveloped economy (Paddys Green Shamrock Shore). The USA then schemed with its NATO partners (everyone except us and France basically) to secure its southern flank with the old Warsaw Pact by having Greece 'rewarded' by becoming a member (an arguably second world economy at best). That is not speculation by the way as Condi Rice did her best to reward NATOs other southern bulwark by trying to coerce the EU into taking in Turkey.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by sewa View Post
                    The Dutch noble tradition was as usual naked self interest, they knew that to trade with companies you need to build a bond and language skills / understanding their culture are part of that. Import a couple of thousand people and you have aready made export market at the far side. Irish people assume they are an open liberal society because of what the drugs and brassers were legalised, they did it to tax it. Its still illegal to grow fields of weed but yeah you can sell it and we wont ask where it comes from
                    They've been outflanked by Colorado.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Taking in Turkey was something I aint sure of, country has some real proper old style poverty and a lunatic fundamentalist side but then it has some fantastic factories and some very Western style modern people too. Difficult call. Israel should have been admitted by now but we are stalling on that and I am not sure they really want to come in, their American ties are very strong so they may not need to
                      My computer thinks I'm gay
                      What's the difference anyway
                      When all the people do all day
                      Is stare into a phone

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by isola ciarrai View Post
                        The British effectively 'won' the ideological battle on the nature of the EEC/EU, which had two factions - the elite Monnet-ists who wanted a 'deeper' EU (more and more competencies going upwards to supranational institutions all the time) and the sceptics who went for a 'wider' EU, and basically embarrassed the remainder with talk of 'reuniting a divided continent' and forcing the issue of bringing all of central and eastern Europe into the EU in one fell swoop, with a second rate access to funding.
                        The original Six were economically developed, homogenous nations, who took in two developed economies (UK and Denmark) and one underdeveloped economy (Paddys Green Shamrock Shore). The USA then schemed with its NATO partners (everyone except us and France basically) to secure its southern flank with the old Warsaw Pact by having Greece 'rewarded' by becoming a member (an arguably second world economy at best). That is not speculation by the way as Condi Rice did her best to reward NATOs other southern bulwark by trying to coerce the EU into taking in Turkey.
                        And I thought I had a tin foil hat
                        Please support Milford Hospice. Click here to donate.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by fitzy73 View Post
                          And I thought I had a tin foil hat
                          What's a tin foil hat for? And where can I get one?
                          Con Artist

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by fitzy73 View Post
                            And I thought I had a tin foil hat
                            You may have a tin foil hat but I have an honours Masters Degree in European Law in NUI and spent years of my life that I would love to have back buried in this morass. Fact, the USA, certainly in Dubyas day, sees Europe as little more than an adjunct to their own foreign policy objectives, a fact no doubt exacerbated by 50 years of Europe using USA forces as their big brother, up to fall of Warsaw Pact. To USA it made perfect sense to have Greece and Turkey aligned with and supported financially by, the EU states. The USA is living proof of the old saying - we have neither eternal friends nor eternal foes, merely eternal interests. A bizzare mixture of ruthlessness and imcompetence.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              It's easily forgotten these days how EU expansion looked like post Cold War. This was the "west" rolling its borders right up to the Russia. Isn't that what's playing out in Ukraine as we speak?
                              "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                              "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                              "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X