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Standing up to the church

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    Standing up to the church

    14th June Letter in the Irish Independent


    * Firstly, I would like to applaud Enda Kenny for being the first Taoiseach of this country to recognise and publicly announce that he is a Taoiseach for all the people of Ireland and not just the Catholics.
    Secondly, I would like to express my support for him and his Government in introducing this legislation, legislation that Fianna Fail, the political wing of the Catholic Church, was mandated to implement in a referendum but which refused to do so; legislation that is about saving the lives of women, and not, as the church would have us believe, about murder.
    I sincerely hope that others will show the same courage as Mr Kenny and come out and support this legislation and not hide behind religious beliefs. You, all of you, have the duty to save the lives of all Irish citizens.
    Thirdly, I would like to comment on the role of the Catholic Church in this affair. The Catholic Church represents a foreign state (Vatican City) – it does not represent Ireland, nor is it elected to speak on behalf of the Irish people. Ireland is a nation, not a religion.
    The campaign of tyranny initiated by the bishops and clergy in this country against our Taoiseach and the democratically elected representatives of this State is tantamount to foreign interference in the domestic affairs of a sovereign state.
    There should be a public inquiry into this matter; we cannot allow the church to interfere in state affairs in this fashion.
    Lastly, I reiterate: Ireland is a nation, not a religion, and while you are free to practise your religion, you are not free to impose your will through the use of tyranny, coercion, bullying or threats. Democracy is about choice, not imposition.
    Ray Behan
    Clontarf, Dublin 3


    The views held by the writer go to the heart of the Church v State issues and Mr. Behan is on the ball.

    Kenny is displaying great courage in finally taking them on after years of servility from FF.
    Last edited by Stanley; 16th-June-2013, 09:28.

    #2
    Discussed here http://bocktherobber.com/2013/06/the...public-policy/
    A lion online, a lamb at home.

    Comment


      #3
      Forget removing them from policy. The revelations of cover ups and child abuse should have seen the break of all relations and the expulsion of every clergyman from the country, followed by the seizure of the Church's assets.
      "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

      "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


      "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post
        Forget removing them from policy. The revelations of cover ups and child abuse should have seen the break of all relations and the expulsion of every clergyman from the country, followed by the seizure of the Church's assets.
        So because a small minority of clergymen abused their powers you support mass deportation of every priest who has ever been ordained? I seem to remember you opposing the deportation of radical muslims on another thread so why do you support deporting priests? Is it because they are Catholic?

        Comment


          #5
          But it wasn't just a small minority of clergymen abused their powers, we had a systematic cover up of child abuse, a policy of removing offending priests from their parish and moving them to another parish free to abuse again. None of these crimes were reported to the state authorities. Canon law took precedence over state law, the clergy were loyal to a foreign state not to Ireland. Do you think that these people have a constructive role to play in our country?
          A lion online, a lamb at home.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by tomh903 View Post
            So because a small minority of clergymen abused their powers you support mass deportation of every priest who has ever been ordained? I seem to remember you opposing the deportation of radical muslims on another thread so why do you support deporting priests? Is it because they are Catholic?
            No. Because the hierarchy of the church systemically obstructed the exposure and prosecution of that "minority", which is a systemic act of abuse by the entire church. Any other foreign state would have their representatives expelled if they did the same.

            And I didn't oppose the deportation of clerics. So you're either deliberately lying, or you need to pay more attention to what you're reading.
            "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

            "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


            "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post
              And I didn't oppose the deportation of clerics. So you're either deliberately lying, or you need to pay more attention to what you're reading.
              I never said you opposed the deportation of clerics. If you look at my post I say you opposed the deportation of radical muslims not clerics. YOU need to pay more attention to what you're reading.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by tomh903 View Post
                I never said you opposed the deportation of clerics. If you look at my post I say you opposed the deportation of radical muslims not clerics. YOU need to pay more attention to what you're reading.
                Sorry, I glorified your point by endowing it with relevance. Clerics would have been a relevant parallel, in part.

                To address the point you're reaching for, though, the Clergy are representatives of the Church, not just private individuals.
                "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                Comment


                  #9
                  You want mass deportation of Irish citizens on the grounds of religion?

                  And you consider THAT liberal?

                  McQuaid didn't have pogroms of Protestant clergy, yet you'd expel Irish citizens - and are throwing toys because they exercise their right, as any citizen can, openly to lobby, make their views known and seek to persuade.

                  I've remarked before that the Irish liberal is nothing more than the belt-of-a-crozier Church sitting tieless on the grave thereof. I may have been too charitable in that assessment.

                  Incidentally, what would you do with the Gardaí and State representatives involved as well, and those in the GSE complicit in current cover-ups and failure to report?
                  Ceterum censeo INM irrumandum esse.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Stanley View Post
                    Lastly, I reiterate: Ireland is a nation, not a religion, and while you are free to practise your religion, you are not free to impose your will through the use of tyranny, coercion, bullying or threats. Democracy is about choice, not imposition.
                    Ray Behan
                    Clontarf, Dublin 3

                    Absolutely Democracy is about choice and some people choose to listen to church leaders both Roman Catholic, other Christian and other minority religions in Ireland. The church representatives should not be denied their opportunity to voice their opinions, concerns and their advice / recommendations to the people who are adherents of that particular church. It is then up to those adherents to agree or disagree.

                    The state should not be engaging in tactics to deny people their right t express their opinions, provided those expressions are not designed to create hate or violence against another.

                    As it is I agree with Enda Kenny on everything he has stated since becoming Prime Minister in relation to items concerning the Roman Catholic Church. He was correct in what he stated in the Irish Parliament wrt the clerical abuse and cover up of same and he is correct to take the lead in this abortion legislation issue IMO. For all his faults, which number a few less than his two predecessors, he is showing courage in these matters which FF politicians generally are sadly lacking in.

                    The fact that there are reports of Kenny and some other politicians facing abuse and vile and threatening letters etc shows that some of the anti-abortion element in Ireland will go to great lengths to suppress freedom of expression and choice. Any of these individuals who have overstepped the mark ought to be rooted out and charged. It should be unacceptable to the vast majority of Irish people, regardless of their position on the legislation, to allow a group of people try trying to intimidate the public representatives of the country as they go about their legitimate business.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I'd prosecute them. But they're not agents of a foreign state engaged in a decades long criminal conspiracy against the Republic's citizens.

                      And I didn't say they should be expelled for lobbying. They should have been expelled for the mass rape of this nation's children, and the cover up that followed.

                      The Church is a criminal organization, an enemy of democracy and the rule of law.

                      Let the Irish citizens in the clergy stay should they choose. But not as representatives of the Vatican. Should they wish to maintain their office in the largest paedophile ring in world history, let them do it elsewhere.

                      And I never said I was liberal.
                      "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                      "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                      "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Decent letter, but I'd disagree on a couple of points. Firstly I think the bill that the government have drafted is, in certain parts, cowardly and secondly Fine Gael are, and probably always will be, far more deserving of being called the political wing of the Catholic Church. For every loony wafer eater in Fianna Fáil there's five or six in the blueshirts.
                        "It’s not the team you support, it’s the club you should support. The team on the pitch will ebb and flow because that’s the nature of sport. No team has ever been successful decade on decade. The club has the history and that’s the passion you should have."

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Jenta View Post
                          Decent letter, but I'd disagree on a couple of points. Firstly I think the bill that the government have drafted is, in certain parts, cowardly and secondly Fine Gael are, and probably always will be, far more deserving of being called the political wing of the Catholic Church. For every loony wafer eater in Fianna Fáil there's five or six in the blueshirts.
                          Is it 5 or 6? Can you back up this statement with some independently verified research?
                          A lion online, a lamb at home.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by 5eight View Post
                            Is it 5 or 6? Can you back up this statement with some independently verified research?
                            Shouldn't you be patrolling the crime thread in case someone says something mean about limerick?
                            "It’s not the team you support, it’s the club you should support. The team on the pitch will ebb and flow because that’s the nature of sport. No team has ever been successful decade on decade. The club has the history and that’s the passion you should have."

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Ouch, what a retort. The king of repartee!

                              Shouldn't you be able to support your mutterings?
                              A lion online, a lamb at home.

                              Comment

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