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    In all honesty, while the economic side is important and very far-reaching, my own view is that it is nonetheless secondary to the blood on her hands. To me, human life is precious and those willing to destroy it for their own gain are the lowest of the low. So unfortunately it's impossible for me to divorce her actions in the Falklands and her support for other murderous regimes (the Khmer Rouge, ffs!) from any consideration of her as a person or as a politician. It is core to who she was, and to why I will never change my views on her.
    Tis but a scratch.

    Comment


      Originally posted by mr chips View Post
      In all honesty, while the economic side is important and very far-reaching, my own view is that it is nonetheless secondary to the blood on her hands. To me, human life is precious and those willing to destroy it for their own gain are the lowest of the low. So unfortunately it's impossible for me to divorce her actions in the Falklands and her support for other murderous regimes (the Khmer Rouge, ffs!) from any consideration of her as a person or as a politician. It is core to who she was, and to why I will never change my views on her.
      I don't understand the Khmer Rouge references, they had been ousted before she even came to power. I don't see why she would support a regime that slaughtered people for wearing wrist watches.

      Comment


        "Although the Khmer Rouge government ("Democratic Kampuchea") had ceased to exist in January 1979, its representatives were allowed to continue occupying Cambodia's seat at the UN; indeed, the US, China and Britain insisted on it. Meanwhile, a Security Council embargo on Cambodia compounded the suffering of a traumatised nation, while the Khmer Rouge in exile got almost everything it wanted.

        (...)

        Until 1989, the British role in Cambodia remained secret. The first reports appeared in the Sunday Telegraph, written by Simon O'Dwyer-Russell, a diplomatic and defence correspondent with close professional and family contacts with the SAS. He revealed that the SAS was training the Pol Pot-led force. Soon afterwards, Jane's Defence Weekly reported that the British training for the "non-communist" members of the "coalition" had been going on "at secret bases in Thailand for more than four years". The instructors were from the SAS, "all serving military personnel, all veterans of the Falklands conflict, led by a captain".

        The Cambodian training became an exclusively British operation after the "Irangate" arms-for-hostages scandal broke in Washington in 1986. "If Congress had found out that Americans were mixed up in clandestine training in Indo-China, let alone with Pol Pot," a Ministry of Defence source told O'Dwyer-Russell, "the balloon would have gone right up. It was one of those classic Thatcher-Reagan arrangements." Moreover, Margaret Thatcher had let slip, to the consternation of the Foreign Office, that "the more reasonable ones in the Khmer Rouge will have to play some part in a future government". In 1991, I interviewed a member of "R" (reserve) Squadron of the SAS, who had served on the border. "We trained the KR in a lot of technical stuff - a lot about mines," he said. "We used mines that came originally from Royal Ordnance in Britain, which we got by way of Egypt with marking changed . . . We even gave them psychological training. At first, they wanted to go into the villages and just chop people up. We told them how to go easy . . ."

        The Foreign Office response was to lie. "Britain does not give military aid in any form to the Cambodian factions," stated a parliamentary reply. The then prime minister, Thatcher, wrote to Neil Kinnock: "I confirm that there is no British government involvement of any kind in training, equipping or co-operating with Khmer Rouge forces or those allied to them." On 25 June 1991, after two years of denials, the government finally admitted that the SAS had been secretly training the "resistance" since 1983. A report by Asia Watch filled in the detail: the SAS had taught "the use of improvised explosive devices, booby traps and the manufacture and use of time-delay devices". The author of the report, Rae McGrath (who shared a joint Nobel Peace Prize for the international campaign on landmines), wrote in the Guardian that "the SAS training was a criminally irresponsible and cynical policy".


        Full article at http://www.newstatesman.com/node/137397
        Tis but a scratch.

        Comment


          Thank you for posting that. Another thing, like support for the SA apartheid government that was indefensible even in the context of the Cold War.

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            Just saw this on twitter:


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              Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post
              But there are a lot more than two ways to skin a cat, there are hundreds of ways. Everyone is carrying on as though the world was black and white. The people on one side will not accept that she ever did anything that wasn't the incarnation of pure evil. Many on the other side will defend her until they give themselves an aneurism and will maintain she was the greatest human being who ever walked Gods earth.

              The truth as usual is somewhere in between. However There is a story I heard about this 'demon' that might surprise some people. At a smart reception in 10 Downing St the young girl waiting on the event dropped a tray right in the middle of the packed room covering herself and a few of the guests in all sorts. The kid burst into tears and the first person there to clear up the mess and help this girl was Margaret Thatcher, my acquaintance said she ignored everyone in the room and concentrated all her attentions on this upset girl.
              Ah how sweet. Nice little bit of spin there. Perhaps maggie was just killing time until one of the many murderous dictators she supported showed up for tea.

              Comment


                her son mark was a bit old style colonial gob****e with his part in.the attempted coup in Equatorial Guinea...anyway.....she just struck me has having very little principles...she was an anti.tobacco campaigner but ended up on payroll of British American tobacco...she had several u turns on economic policy even after her this woman is not for turning speech.before anyone accuses me of being a leftist socialist...i have lived for nearly 20 years in US and have embraced and enjoyed the trappings of real capitalism....but that doesn't mean i have to agree with every right wingers leader in the free world...there are good and bad...and thatcher on the whole was bad...yes she got handed a bad set of economic circumstances after labour left.....but like certain elements of the right the implementation of her policies trampled oo the very people who's lives she thought she was trying to make better....supporters of thatcher or Reagan who believed vehemently in they're policies sometimes have tunnel vision towards the success of their economic success....but its implemented with the sword rather than a scalpel ...using tools such as over use of deregulation in banking , commerce. etc....and are happy that end goals justify the means...its only when the look back over 10 or 20 years and see the trail of destruction left behind that they pause.parts of the UK suffered badly. under Thatcher ditto parts of USA under Reagan.
                "Hell, I'm not saying I'm an angel, but when it came to dirty tricks I couldn't hold a candle to the Irish Mafia" Jimmy Hoffa

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Major TNT View Post
                  Ah how sweet. Nice little bit of spin there. Perhaps maggie was just killing time until one of the many murderous dictators she supported showed up for tea.
                  A murderous dictator like Galtieri, Honecker or Ceaucesceu? Wasn't an attempt at spin, all I am attempting is to show that the issues are not black and white. You obviously think they are.
                  Last edited by the plastic paddy; 9-April-2013, 18:15.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post
                    A murderous dictator like Galtieri? Wasn't an attempt at spin, all I am attempting is to show that the issues are not black and white. You obviously think they are.
                    sure it wasnt. On a more general point, why are political leaders like maggie, blair, bush etc and their supporters so concerned about the legacy left behind?
                    If you carried on the way maggie did, and wrecked destruction in so many places well then you deserve all the critical comment after you are no more. Cant have it both ways.

                    helping the help at dinner parties, what a load of cobblers!!

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Major TNT View Post
                      sure it wasnt. On a more general point, why are political leaders like maggie, blair, bush etc and their supporters so concerned about the legacy left behind?
                      If you carried on the way maggie did, and wrecked destruction in so many places well then you deserve all the critical comment after you are no more. Cant have it both ways.

                      helping the help at dinner parties, what a load of cobblers!!
                      I am certainly not a supporter of her, Bush or Blair. The story was to demonstrate that she was a human being, complex and difficult like any other, it was not to mitigate her policies. Anyway, that is me done with politics on MF.

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                        The United Kingdom became a net importer of manufactured goods for the first time in its history in 1983, on her beat, She did more damage to UK industry than the Luftwaffe and the TUC combined and when she had a chance to help rebuild it chose instead policies that helped the financial sector and the City of London.

                        In return they provided a credit boom, and loadsamoney, which led to a property boom and we all know where that leads

                        One week NatWest was refusing me a £50 check guarantee card, the next I was given a free camera to sign up for a £3k limit credit card. Two weeks later I was dining in Paris.

                        Now the only thing made in Britain now are Japenese cars.

                        Here she is in pictures.
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                        Munster – Champions of Europe 2006, 2008, 2020.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by MrsMcGahan View Post
                          If my wife was propping up a system where a section of the population had no vote due to their ethnicity she'd deserve what she got.
                          It's people like you who created the conditions for the civil war in the NI statelet.
                          You deserved what you got.
                          I disagree with the personalisation of your message towards a usually very balanced poster, but the fact that the Provo's were born out of an apartheid Unionism regime is completely ignored by so many. It would nice to see Unionism to realise that fact at some point.

                          To hear Unionists putting in reference to their unhappiness with the Anglo Irish agreement in their statements yesterday was hilarious. Unionism has forever been on life support from English politicians like Thatcher, and without them the concept of a Protestant majority North would never have survived. They should be down on their knees praising her like a Muslim praises Muhammad instead of nit picking one decision which helped in some part to NI becoming an equal democratic society.
                          Last edited by busby; 9-April-2013, 19:10.
                          "There are probably more annoying things than being hectored about African development by a wealthy Irish rock star in a cowboy hat, but I can't think of one at the moment"

                          Paul Theroux

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by busby View Post
                            I disagree with the personalisation of your message towards a usually very balanced poster, but the fact that the Provo's were born out of an apartheid Unionism regime is completely ignored by so many. It would nice to see Unionism to realise that fact at some point.

                            To hear Unionists putting in reference to their unhappiness with the Anglo Irish agreement in their statements yesterday was hilarious. Unionism has forever been on life support from English politicians like Thatcher, and without them the concept of a Protestant majority North would never have survived. They should be down on their knees praising her like a Muslim praises Muhammad instead of nit picking one decision which helped in some part to NI becoming an equal democratic society.
                            Inkeeping with SRG's wish to keep NI out of this I will stick to saying that to call NI an apartheid regime is a rather absurd statement IMO.

                            The bolded piece is as mystifying as it is misleading...according to the last census there is still an increasingly marginal protestant majority in Northern Ireland- whilst, of the 45% approximate Catholic population only around half of these consider themselves Irish (25% of NI). It would stand to reason that if put to an either/or vote regarding staying in the UK, ergo Unionists by its strictest definition, or joining some form of United Ireland that certainly in the past, and most likely for the foreseeable future that Northern Ireland will remain a part of the United Kingdom.

                            The problem of course with NI politics is it still remains along religious lines and this continues to exacerbate old wounds-the constant one upmanship by Unionist or Nationalist dominated councils is still raging away here. The Union Flag debacle and Raymond McCresh Play Park being notable recent examples. Unfortunately it suits the current parties, their beliefs and their prejudices so the turkey's ain't going to vote for Christmas. Would personally much prefer the parties to be Conservative, Labour, Liberal, Greens or the like

                            Comment


                              One of the things demonstrated by the support and military training she provided for the Khmer Rouge is her utter hypocrisy in ensuring that support was provided to one set of vicious murderers on the far side of the world, well removed from her own electorate, after parroting her "crime is crime is crime" stuff about the hunger strikers she condemned as self-same vicious murderers. Her decisions were politically expedient and/or in line with her own prejudices, not based in high-minded principle as many claim - in the case of NI, not only was the constitutional question a no-go area for her, it was also useful to keep what was indisputably an artificially created Unionist majority onside. She even admitted to regretting the one significant thing she did that went against that lobby-group's wishes, the Anglo-Irish Agreement.

                              Regarding the survey on people's identities here, they actually lend me a slight sense of optimism in that the responses would have been significantly more entrenched and substantially more divided along sectarian lines had it been carried out during the Thatcher years, or indeed at any time from the earliest days of the civil rights movement until after the Good Friday Agreement. So there is a little candle flame of hope that we might end up with politicians whose primary focus and whose affiliations are based on something more tangible than which side their ancestors fought on in 1690. I agree wholeheartedly that the political arrangements here in NI are still painfully outdated and still operate very much on sectarian lines. It's something that has actually deterred me from voting at all in the last several elections - must admit I don't know how long I can maintain a "plague on all your houses" approach though, in that the longer it continues the less entitlement I may have to criticise/comment on the political process here.
                              Tis but a scratch.

                              Comment


                                This is one of the most interesting threads on here in ages. Conflicting views but with good arguments and lots of interesting historical references for further reading.....

                                Wtf is going on?
                                The only difference between me and a madman is that I'm not mad.
                                - Salvador Dali (1904-1989)

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