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Maggie Thatcher has died

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    Originally posted by sewa View Post
    How did she win so many democratic elections when its clear from a quick look at the internet that she was the devil incarnate and was decimating everyone bar a minority of rich powerful people?
    Per capita GDP was 40% behind the US when she came to power. It was 12% behind the US when she left. I don't doubt that that was because the rich got much richer but a lot in the middle in England did very well as well. Now that could well have been at the expense of working class communities in Wales, Scotland and the North of England, I have deliberately not included the north of Ireland because I do not discuss Irish politics on here, but they were not going to vote for her anyway and that is the brutal weakness of the first past the post UK electoral system. It completely disenfranchises swathes of the country to the extent they can be ignored/ bullied by the government. Devolution/ independence is the net result of her Anglo centric policies.

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      [QUOTE=sewa;1214687]
      Originally posted by mr chips View Post
      Blair won three elections in a row, doesn't mean he isn't a mass-murdering war criminal.

      QUOTE]Seen as you mention Blair winning three elections is it not fair to say he / new labour took the exact same line as Maggie. Open up the city, deregulate, privatise etc and three times he got reelected on the back of it. Could it be that the majority of people now realise that exact economic approach actually works? Its only a minority of socialists and hippies who refuse to face this truth
      When asked about her greatest political achievement Maggie was alleged to have said "Tony Blair".

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        Originally posted by sewa View Post
        How did she win so many democratic elections when its clear from a quick look at the internet that she was the devil incarnate and was decimating everyone bar a minority of rich powerful people?


        The union leaders failed to win the popular vote. I'm not denying that the unions and their leaders were partly to blame for the fact that she regained power over and over again. The ignorance of the middle classes, social division and the appeal of a reduction in public spending (lower taxes) was also telling

        The political map hasn't changed much for over a hundred years (some conservative gains in the last election in wales etc). Since the 80's some wards have changed to allow for a more balanced representation, but it was quite easy for the conservatives to gain a majority. If the Scottish gain independance then it's going to be even easier.
        Last edited by Huwie; 9-April-2013, 15:08.
        The axe that cuts the tree can easily forget, but the tree thats been cut will not forget.

        Originally posted by the plastic paddy
        Gwan the Welsh

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          I know you said you dont want to discuss NI but it provides a perfect example, the taxes made in and around the city of London were dispersed there to such an extent that almost anyone who had a job up there during the troubles worked for the governemnt in one form or another
          My computer thinks I'm gay
          What's the difference anyway
          When all the people do all day
          Is stare into a phone

          Comment


            Originally posted by sewa View Post
            I know you said you dont want to discuss NI but it provides a perfect example, the taxes made in and around the city of London were dispersed there to such an extent that almost anyone who had a job up there during the troubles worked for the governemnt in one form or another
            But that is not a healthy state of affairs, applying as it also does to the South of Wales, North east of England and Scotland. I do think her legacy of a bloated service sector at the expense of primary and secondary industry is something with which the UK is still struggling but the excesses of the unions were a factor in that as well. As I say it is not black and white.

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              Originally posted by Red Hand Hero View Post
              She was a tyrant of a political leader in the best sense. As EO says you voted for her, and her party, and you knew what you were getting. She was a victim of her own success in some ways, unfortunately for her she couldn't go out on her own terms in either politics or in life. I wasn't a fan of all her policies but she was a constant, no bull-sh*tting and she deserves some respect. The glee some people are taking in her death is quite frankly disgusting. You have the likes of Obama eulogising her and then dispicable cretins like George Galloway and Gerry Adams taking a sneaky dig....says it all really for me.

              She modernised Britain, we were a failing, essentially bankrupt state due to incompetent Labour governments whom were ruled as much by their Union overlords as they were the British electorate. Thatcher ended that, and if nothing else I am sure any Labour Politician with half a brain is quietly thankful for that because you can be sure as hell none of them would have stood up to them with either the tenacity or the guts that auld Maggie demonstrated. Her privatisation campaigns were a necessary given the overdependence of state support in loss-making industries and services. Just look at where Greece are now, Britain might not have been far away had hard choices not been made.

              I also chuckle heartily when her de-regulation of the financial markets is cited by the left as some sort of root cause of the financial-crisis...trying to re-write history because that will forever be the legacy of an incompetent Labour government who sold the crown jewels (Britains gold) for a song in the halcyon days when the gravy train was never going to stop. Thatcher's moves allowed Britain to become a financial hub and move away from uncompetitive industries like mining and manufacturing (as they were at the time....!!), it was Bliar and Brown that turned the City into a Casino.


              Regarding her activities in Northern Ireland, I would not call them two faced.It was pragmatic politics, to not engage would have been foolish but to give in to the IRA would have been unforgiveable and at the time could well have sent NI into a state of sectarian anarchy. Ironically, as some other thoughtful soul has pointed out, her work with the Anglo-Irish agreement probably paved the way for the GFA. She acknowledged Sands was an animal, and so he was...a murdering one, and was willing to let him act, live and die like one. Because let us not kid ourselves, those ten great and glorious martyrs to the Republican cause were murderers and that is a fact. They chose to take their own lives, a choice their victims were not afforded, and Thatcher let them...and as for Gerry it is well acknowledged that the IRA Army Council, of which he was a ruling figure, were more than happy for a few of their brave volunteers to die- the leadership were busy lining their pockets with Gadaffi's Oil Money, guns, bombs and the blood of their foot soliders....good old socialist ideals eh.
              Originally posted by Major TNT View Post
              complete load of revisionist tosh. Amounts to nothing more than thatcher = good, everybody else, well, who cares, thatcher = good.
              she was a sick, psychotic bitch who revelled in human suffering.
              That fact she instructed the police to literally batter striking miners non stop says it all for any right minded person. Gestapo type stuff.
              Have heard many many others say they were glad she endured plenty of suffering of her own before she died. Maybe there is such a thing as karma.
              Absolutely TNT, I am afraid RHH that is tosh. The disintegration of British industry began with Edward Heath and continued with a pace by Thatcher. It is estimated that unemployment was actually near 3,000,000 when Heath left office a situation the Labour governments of Wilson and Callaghan could not cope with, unemployment was in the region of 500,000 when he came to power.

              I lived in London during the first two Thatcher terms and you seem to have ignored that she was the most unpopular prime minister of all time until she instigated a war with Argentina (a war which it is well documented could have easily been avoided as it was during Jim Callaghan's reign as prime minister). It was through the loss of many British and Argentinian lives she became popular reaching out for and sucking in the little Englander vote.
              Her handling of the miners strike was as close as you can get to civil war without there being an actual war, whilst the miners starved members of the Met Police bought houses from the overtime and other allowances paid during the strike. It was virtually the home counties against the miners, Thatcher had not forgotten the earlier miners strike when Heath was in power and the 3 day week and she had resolved long before getting into power she would break them. She was only looking for an excuse.

              How anyone can condemn Gerry Adams and the IRA whilst condoning someone who gambled the lives of servicemen to bolster her position is beyond me.
              I am one of the 5 clowns woo hoo

              Comment


                Originally posted by sewa View Post
                How did she win so many democratic elections when its clear from a quick look at the internet that she was the devil incarnate and was decimating everyone bar a minority of rich powerful people?
                How did Ireland elect the same sleveen politicians three times and will probably elect them again in the future.
                Definition of Insanity. Playing the same game plan over and over again expecting a different result.

                Comment


                  The SDP Labour Split and the Falklands did an awful lot for her too in terms of clinging on to power.
                  "It’s not the team you support, it’s the club you should support. The team on the pitch will ebb and flow because that’s the nature of sport. No team has ever been successful decade on decade. The club has the history and that’s the passion you should have."

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by sewa View Post

                    Seen as you mention Blair winning three elections is it not fair to say he / new labour took the exact same line as Maggie. Open up the city, deregulate, privatise etc and three times he got reelected on the back of it. Could it be that the majority of people now realise that exact economic approach actually works? Its only a minority of socialists and hippies who refuse to face this truth
                    That worked out really well, didn't it.
                    Last edited by fitzy73; 9-April-2013, 15:19.
                    Please support Milford Hospice. Click here to donate.

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                      Originally posted by Jenta View Post
                      I think we should either be given a definitive list of these dogmatic socialists or Viigand should be banned for a week for an unforgiveable case of Outlawing.
                      :)

                      Comment


                        [QUOTE=mr chips;1214678] Blair won three elections in a row, doesn't mean he isn't a mass-murdering war criminal.
                        QUOTE]

                        Originally posted by sewa View Post

                        Seen as you mention Blair winning three elections is it not fair to say he / new labour took the exact same line as Maggie. Open up the city, deregulate, privatise etc and three times he got reelected on the back of it. Could it be that the majority of people now realise that exact economic approach actually works? Its only a minority of socialists and hippies who refuse to face this truth
                        OK, we're moving away from the concept of electoral success as mitigation for bloodletting at least ...
                        I think Blair realised from the example of Thatcherism what he could get away with doing and whom it was in his interest to keep sweet. Bread & circuses for the masses while the economy is raped by the super-rich. The UK is pretty fupped as a result of that economic approach. Ireland's economy is even worse and it is even more deregulated (infamously enabling bankers to hop across from Germany to Dublin and carry out trades that were illegal in their own jurisdiction).
                        Tis but a scratch.

                        Comment


                          The Falklands War made her. The tory party were dead in the water facing an election in twelve months and wipeout loomed.
                          Definition of Insanity. Playing the same game plan over and over again expecting a different result.

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                            Originally posted by Jenta View Post
                            The SDP Labour Split and the Falklands did an awful lot for her too in terms of clinging on to power.
                            Why did labour split though? A lot of that was down to the excess power of the unions. It is worth bearing in mind that Ed Milliband was selected as labour leader against the democratic wishes of the membership who wanted his brother, because of the block votes of the unions. It is going to be a massive issue at the next election although if the Scots are independent by then (unlikely as that is) the lurch to the right in England will be worrying.

                            Comment


                              [QUOTE=mr chips;1214713]
                              Originally posted by mr chips View Post
                              Blair won three elections in a row, doesn't mean he isn't a mass-murdering war criminal.
                              QUOTE]



                              OK, we're moving away from the concept of electoral success as mitigation for bloodletting at least ...
                              I think Blair realised from the example of Thatcherism what he could get away with doing and whom it was in his interest to keep sweet. Bread & circuses for the masses while the economy is raped by the super-rich. The UK is pretty fupped as a result of that economic approach. Ireland's economy is even worse and it is even more deregulated (infamously enabling bankers to hop across from Germany to Dublin and carry out trades that were illegal in their own jurisdiction).
                              Yeah I dont think there is any point going there with regards to the rights or wrongs of the Falklands or the IRA stuff. Its too polarising. Another thing she was famous for was the reference to Britain being swamped by immigrants. I think an awful lot of British people would tell you now she was right and it shouldnt have been allowed to happen
                              My computer thinks I'm gay
                              What's the difference anyway
                              When all the people do all day
                              Is stare into a phone

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by sewa View Post
                                Are you
                                A) dogmatic
                                B) socialist
                                bok?
                                I dnt catogorize myself politically, socially or in any other way. The only catogory I asign myself to is BOKism. I have certain opinions on some things and others on other things. I never have and never will adjust my opinion to better fit the mould of what a socialist or a capatilist or whatever should be. I do however keep an open mind and will adjust my opinion if someone makes a better, more sensical argument to mine. I dnt close my mind and argue a point to the end jst because its the opinion I held at the start of a dicussion. These catagories only exist so society will know how to judge a person! I personally prefer to judge a person on what they say and do not on what social category they belong to or political party or whatever.
                                Last edited by BOK; 9-April-2013, 15:56.

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