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    #31


    B-B, we have problems finding certain skil-sets here too. The one I hear mostabout is occupational therapists - like hen's teeth, but then we don't qualify 1/4 enough. many of the jobs are filled by SAs and Aussies, but it's difficult to make them permament.


    But judging from what you've been saying, the NHS problems are hiccups compared to the crisis we now have in Bertie's republik.

    Comment


      #32
      Originally posted by mike11


      B-B, we have problems finding certain skil-sets here too. The one I hear mostabout is occupational therapists - like hen's teeth, but then we don't qualify 1/4 enough. many of the jobs are filled by SAs and Aussies, but it's difficult to make them permament.


      But judging from what you've been saying, the NHS problems are hiccups compared to the crisis we now have in Bertie's republik.


      It's relative, I suppose. For me, "free at the point of delivery" is the essential measure and everything else should be built around it. The finances in the NHS are a problem, but one that will gradually be ironed out I think. Dental care is an issue, as is Mental Health.


      It's strange when you look at the media coverage, because they're really caught up in this "NHS in crisis" thing, but most people running the service seem to feel that if the reforms are given a chance to bed in the problems will be overcome.


      Part of the problem is that every secretary of state has to introduce something new to leave their mark and build their career. The latest thing being suggested is an independent board for the NHS, and I think that could be a very good thing.


      Most people in the UK have never had to face the notion of not having medical treatment becuase they can't afford it. Ireland seems to be moving towards that point.
      "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

      "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


      "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

      Comment


        #33


        Originally posted by Balla Boy


        ................


        It's relative, I suppose. For me, "free at the point of delivery" is the essential measure and everything else should be built around it. The finances in the NHS are a problem, but one that will gradually be ironed out I think. Dental care is an issue, as is Mental Health **. - here dental is more or less private now, and most insurance policies don't cover. there is some contribution for PRSI payers to bacis treatments (e.g. fillings, etc). Try having anything else done - it just costs a bomb (I know....., been there).


        .....


        Most people in the UK have never had to face the notion of not having medical treatment becuase they can't afford it. Ireland seems to be moving towards that point. - we're already past that point, see below.


        Basically you don't get hospital or specialist treatmentnow in Ireland unless you pay, that's the 'beauty' of the 2-tier system. Waiting lists are so long for urgent stuff (smear tests now take on average 16 weeks to be returned, hip operations more than 1 year, you can forget about scans, etc.). That's not even mentioning the extremely high mortality rates from MRSA (& theytry and fudge the figures on that).


        We even had our esteemed minister for Health on telly a few months back boasting about the high percentage of workers here who take out health insurance - and then she has the audacity to keep supporting the inefficient VHI! Mary, It's because you're dead if you fall ill here with health insurance...!!!!! Anyone who can afford HI has it, problem is not everyone can. It's part of the flawed thinking.


        ** The biggest killer for young adult males in Ireland is suicide. We can 'invest' a lot in so-called road-safety ads, yet the far bigger problem isn't even acknowledged.

        Comment


          #34
          Originally posted by mike11


          Originally posted by Balla Boy


          ................


          It's relative, I suppose. For me, "free at the point of delivery" is the essential measure and everything else should be built around it. The finances in the NHS are a problem, but one that will gradually be ironed out I think. Dental care is an issue, as is Mental Health **. - here dental is more or less private now, and most insurance policies don't cover. there is some contribution for PRSI payers to bacis treatments (e.g. fillings, etc). Try having anything else done - it just costs a bomb (I know....., been there).


          .....


          Most people in the UK have never had to face the notion of not having medical treatment becuase they can't afford it. Ireland seems to be moving towards that point. - we're already past that point, see below.


          Basically you don't get hospital or specialist treatmentnow in Ireland unless you pay, that's the 'beauty' of the 2-tier system. Waiting lists are so long for urgent stuff (smear tests now take on average 16 weeks to be returned, hip operations more than 1 year, you can forget about scans, etc.). That's not even mentioning the extremely high mortality rates from MRSA (& theytry and fudge the figures on that).


          We even had our esteemed minister for Health on telly a few months back boasting about the high percentage of workers here who take out health insurance - and then she has the audacity to keep supporting the inefficient VHI! Mary, It's because you're dead if you fall ill here with health insurance...!!!!! Anyone who can afford HI has it, problem is not everyone can. It's part of the flawed thinking.


          ** The biggest killer for young adult males in Ireland is suicide. We can 'invest' a lot in so-called road-safety ads, yet the far bigger problem isn't even acknowledged.


          Is it that bad? Jesus. The NHS is now working to an 18 week patient pathway from first GP visit to hitting the operating table for orthapaedics.
          "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

          "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


          "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

          Comment


            #35
            Originally posted by Old Dog





            I'm waiting with bated breath for Skyhawk and Bluffian to instruct us that we're a bunch of moanerswho are living in Utopia and that we should be pathetically grateful to Mad Mullah, MRSA Harney, Bungman and Martin Cullen for the great economy that we live in.


            King Midas, anyone?





            no,no,i ve come round to your logical way of thinking OD.we actually infact live in a hellish,terrible country which has the living standards of somalia,the crime of south africa,the womens rights of saudi arabia,the freedom of uzbekistan,and the health service of zambia.


            i really dont know why i didnt see it earlier.and the fact that the U.N. reckons we're the 4th best country in the world to live is obvioulst propoganda by bertie and his evil friends
            g\'wan bruff!!

            ``The answer is not heavy- handed regulations that crush the entrepreneurial spirit and risk- taking of American capitalism. That\'s what\'s made our economy great.\"
            -Barack Obama


            \"The first lesson of economics is scarcity: There is never enough of anything to satisfy all those who want it. The first lesson of politics is to disregard the first lesson of economics\"
            -thomas sowell

            Comment


              #36
              Originally posted by bruffian
              Originally posted by Old Dog





              I'm waiting with bated breath for Skyhawk and Bluffian to instruct us that we're a bunch of moanerswho are living in Utopia and that we should be pathetically grateful to Mad Mullah, MRSA Harney, Bungman and Martin Cullen for the great economy that we live in.


              King Midas, anyone?





              no,no,i ve come round to your logical way of thinking OD.we actually infact live in a hellish,terrible country which has the living standards of somalia,the crime of south africa,the womens rights of saudi arabia,the freedom of uzbekistan,and the health service of zambia.


              i really dont know why i didnt see it earlier.and the fact that the U.N. reckons we're the 4th best country in the world to live is obvioulst propoganda by bertie and his evil friends


              Is the health service s**te or not?
              "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

              "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


              "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

              Comment


                #37
                Balla, while I respect the fact that the HNS is improving, it still has a long, long way to go. My experience of it (so far) are far from positive. A few examples

                If I want to see a GP, I need to make an appointment 48 hours in advance. Sometimes it’s longer than this. Not much use if you are feeling unwell on a Monday and have to wait until Wednesday to see a GP.

                I was recently in need of physio for my back, and received a letter from my local Trust telling me the waiting list was 14 months. Thankfully, the Mrs private work scheme also covers me – a week later I had my first session. 14 months though – the guy who looked at it said I was lucky I came when I did as my back would have gotten to a stage where I would have had constant spasms. Certainly if I’d waited for my PCT to act I’d have ended up being off work for a sustained period of time.

                From what I can see in my trips to the front line GP services, there is a shocking amount of people who are “regulars” - these people seem to be draining the resources away from the Joe Public. If I had my way, I’d impose a fee of say £5 for each visit to the doctor – not enough to worry many people but enough to get the spongers to think twice before visiting.

                In relation to Ireland, I have given up. I’ve tried to get my Dad bumped up the lists on numerous occasions, to no avail. It really pi$$es me off that someone who has contributed all his life in terms of taxes, PRSI etc was treated so shabbily. My Dads condition was pretty serious yet he would have had to wait for over 18 moths for an operation. In the end we decided to pay for it privately. Can someone please tell me why he has paid PRSI all his life?!

                Finally, someone may be able to correct me on this, but I was talking to a UK consultant recently who did so work in St James in Dublin – he was laughing (Literally) telling me he got paid twice while in Ireland – once by the govt and once by the insurance companies. Someone tell me that isn’t the case?

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                Comment


                  #38





                  Fitzy,


                  The 48 hour thing is a f**ker, and one that they've been trying to work out of the system. The original commitment was that anyone would be able to make an appointment to see their GP within 48 hours. Some of the Primary Care Trusts decided that the easiest way to meet this target was to arrange all appointments on a forty eight hour basis. It really varies from PCT to PCT, but I'll generally head for a walk in centre rather than my GP.


                  Physio is difficult, as most of the capacity is taken up by post-operative care. Still, 18 months sounds like a ridiculous wait time to see a physio. I'm covered by my club on that front, and it looks like it's just as well.


                  Avast sumof money in the NHS is spent on a relatively small part of the population, both legitimately and illegitimately. Some people have chronic conditions that will take them to their GP regularly for monitoring or treatment. Others simply have a touch of hypochondria.
                  "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                  "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                  "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                  Comment


                    #39





                    Oh, and the double payment thing is quite common. Doctors work, say, 7 sessions a week and get paid for 10. They use the spare three to do private sector work.


                    In a market where all salaries are regulated, organisations have sought to compete by giving people extra opportunity to earn on top of their salaries.


                    Happens in the NHS as well, if that's what he's talking about.
                    "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                    "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                    "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by bruffian
                      Originally posted by Old Dog





                      I'm waiting with bated breath for Skyhawk and Bluffian to instruct us that we're a bunch of moanerswho are living in Utopia and that we should be pathetically grateful to Mad Mullah, MRSA Harney, Bungman and Martin Cullen for the great economy that we live in.


                      King Midas, anyone?


                      no,no,i ve come round to your logical way of thinking OD.we actually infact live in a hellish,terrible country which has the living standards of somalia,the crime of south africa,the womens rights of saudi arabia,the freedom of uzbekistan,and the health service of zambia.


                      i really dont know why i didnt see it earlier.and the fact that the U.N. reckons we're the 4th best country in the world to live is obvioulst propoganda by bertie and his evil friends


                      It's kind of depressing to note that so far removed are you from the reality of living in Ireland that you need to hide behind statistics from the UN to concoct any kind of an intelligent response, Bluffer. Did it ever strike you that it's probably statisticians from those UN member states that you list above who compiledthose stats?


                      As a matter of interest, wheneveryou want to know whether it's raining outside, do you (a) ring the UNand ask them what the statistics say; or (b) look up the weather forecast in the Irish Times; or (c) look out of the nearest window?








                      New infraction avoidance policy: a post may be described as imbecilic, but its author should never be described as an imbecile.

                      Comment


                        #41


                        True Balla, on all your points. One thing I will say though is how much average salaries for GP's have shot up in the last few years - average GP is on €108k now (according to the Daily Mail - I know, I know). Dentists are on nearly as much, and to my mind get an even better deal as the majority of their work is private.


                        Regarding treatment and timescales, I need to keep in mind the conditions in Ireland, I suppose.


                        Ireland - €50 to see your GP to be told you will wait 14 months


                        England - Free to see your GP to be told you will wait 14 months





                        Please support Milford Hospice. Click here to donate.

                        Comment


                          #42
                          (a) obviously, then the sun shines all time.

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Originally posted by fitzy73
                            ........
                            ........

                            In relation to Ireland, I have given up. I’ve tried to get my Dad bumped up the lists on numerous occasions, to no avail. It really pi$$es me off that someone who has contributed all his life in terms of taxes, PRSI etc was treated so shabbily. My Dads condition was pretty serious yet he would have had to wait for over 18 moths for an operation. In the end we decided to pay for it privately. Can someone please tell me why he has paid PRSI all his life?! - - That's the sad thing; it's the old, ill and vulnerable who are being royally screwed by our so-called health Service; rated worst in the EU before recent enlargement.

                            Finally, someone may be able to correct me on this, but I was talking to a UK consultant recently who did so work in St James in Dublin – he was laughing (Literally) telling me he got paid twice while in Ireland – once by the govt and once by the insurance companies. Someone tell me that isn’t the case? - Unfortunately this is quite common from what i've seen.



                            Fitzy, re. overpayment of consultants - it's quite common from my experience. VHI are quite happy to go along with it; BUPA weren't - and I reckon it was one of the reasons that they were pushed out. I refused to sign some papers re. someone close who had passed on a few years ago as I knew there were false consultant fees involved. Seeminglymy refusalcaused quite a few waves in the little corner of the system that .


                            From some of what I've seen recently,I am coming round to believing that the run-down of what is left of public health service is organised and deliberate and coming from the highest levels. Just askthe next FF or PDelection candidate that comes calling to explain the link between the current Minsiter for Health and all the €Billions (not millions)that are being made by a small number of individuals and companies involved with 'private health services' here. It's called corruption in other countries; here it's "oh, that's how things get done round here" is the best answer you might get.





                            Comment


                              #44
                              Originally posted by Old Dog
                              Originally posted by bruffian
                              Originally posted by Old Dog





                              I'm waiting with bated breath for Skyhawk and Bluffian to instruct us that we're a bunch of moanerswho are living in Utopia and that we should be pathetically grateful to Mad Mullah, MRSA Harney, Bungman and Martin Cullen for the great economy that we live in.


                              King Midas, anyone?


                              no,no,i ve come round to your logical way of thinking OD.we actually infact live in a hellish,terrible country which has the living standards of somalia,the crime of south africa,the womens rights of saudi arabia,the freedom of uzbekistan,and the health service of zambia.


                              i really dont know why i didnt see it earlier.and the fact that the U.N. reckons we're the 4th best country in the world to live is obvioulst propoganda by bertie and his evil friends


                              It's kind of depressing to note that so far removed are you from the reality of living in Ireland that you need to hide behind statistics from the UN to concoct any kind of an intelligent response, Bluffer. Did it ever strike you that it's probably statisticians from those UN member states that you list above who compiledthose stats?


                              As a matter of interest, wheneveryou want to know whether it's raining outside, do you (a) ring the UNand ask them what the statistics say; or (b) look up the weather forecast in the Irish Times; or (c) look out of the nearest window?











                              no,i know we live in a great country,im very happy to live here.i was just using statistics to show that impartial outside adjudicators also can prove it. in fact by most impartial international studies ireland is right up there in terms of pretty much any means to calculate standard of living.


                              dont tell me for one second that if you could find international statistics from the UN or world bank or OECD or whoever that you wouldn't use them to prove your point


                              that recent study showing that ireland has the highest rates of "happiness" in europe,must be fixed,because according to your ramblings everyone should be miserable.


                              and balla,our health system is poor by western european standards,worse again because we spend so much money on it.so yes theres serious problems in its managemenrt
                              g\'wan bruff!!

                              ``The answer is not heavy- handed regulations that crush the entrepreneurial spirit and risk- taking of American capitalism. That\'s what\'s made our economy great.\"
                              -Barack Obama


                              \"The first lesson of economics is scarcity: There is never enough of anything to satisfy all those who want it. The first lesson of politics is to disregard the first lesson of economics\"
                              -thomas sowell

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Originally posted by bruffian
                                Originally posted by Old Dog





                                I'm waiting with bated breath for Skyhawk and Bluffian to instruct us that we're a bunch of moanerswho are living in Utopia and that we should be pathetically grateful to Mad Mullah, MRSA Harney, Bungman and Martin Cullen for the great economy that we live in.


                                King Midas, anyone?


                                ............................


                                i really dont know why i didnt see it earlier.and the fact that the U.N. - really?what? when? recentpublications I've seen by both OECD and UN put us behind many 2nd world countries in many areas, prevalanec of certain diseareckons we're the 4th best country in the world to live is obvioulst propoganda by bertie and his evil friends


                                Bruffian, may I suggest you meet 'Rosie' and quote your (not UN I may add) statsto her. Or meet the family of the Naas mother who needlessly died because she was neglected by our great health service. You need to stop trivialising the misery that this government has inflicted on many because of their dogma. Your glib answers suggest you are as callous as some of the instigators of the suffering in the couple of countries you believe we are better than as posted above.


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