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    Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post

    I think that's a very strong statement. We have a very patchy understanding of how many people have been infected.

    I'm really not sure what gives you such confidence in the context of lock down.
    The infection rate is a good place to start. Then we can move onto the empty hospitals. London simply isn’t seeing anything like the infections they were and the idea that is because of the lockdown is absurd. Lockdown has now become an ideological imperative in the UK, whilst the rest of Europe is moving rapidly to lift it and try and catch up with Sweden, who were right all along, before the autumn. The UK appears to be behind the serology (if not the immunity) in New York (20% infection rate) and Stockholm (over 50%) but there is a reason why Porton Down took 11 extra days to license the Roche antibody test. I suspect they wanted to have a reliable handle on what it was going to reveal before they released it. The problem the UK government has is it has now terrified the life out of the population, for the overwhelming majority of which coronavirus is a benign disease. The irrationality is quite unbelievable, with people now clinging to an incredibly rare Kawasaki type syndrome, which may or may not be linked to covid, as evidence that the disease isn’t, essentially, asymptomatic in children. Numerous studies, worldwide, also indicate children don’t appear to transmit the virus, but the sky is falling in....
    Last edited by the plastic paddy; 17th-May-2020, 07:06.

    Comment


      I have to add that it is a touch unedifying to watch the yummy mummies holding forth from their second homes, after they “just got out in time”, about the need to maintain the lockdown whilst more women were murdered in April than has ever happened in a month in recorded history.

      The irony of the London “lower orders”dealing with the pandemic, via their immune systems, while Minnie is safe in the garden in mummy and daddy’s second home, although she has got terrible anxiety issues because of the virus and it is much too dangerous for her to ride her pony, is quite exquisite.

      Comment


        Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post

        The infection rate is a good place to start. Then we can move onto the empty hospitals. London simply isn’t seeing anything like the infections they were and the idea that is because of the lockdown is absurd. Lockdown has now become an ideological imperative in the UK, whilst the rest of Europe is moving rapidly to lift it and try and catch up with Sweden, who were right all along, before the autumn. The UK appears to be behind the serology (if not the immunity) in New York (20% infection rate) and Stockholm (over 50%) but there is a reason why Porton Down took 11 extra days to license the Roche antibody test. I suspect they wanted to have a reliable handle on what it was going to reveal before they released it. The problem the UK government has is it has now terrified the life out of the population, for the overwhelming majority of which coronavirus is a benign disease. The irrationality is quite unbelievable, with people now clinging to an incredibly rare Kawasaki type syndrome, which may or may not be linked to covid, as evidence that the disease isn’t, essentially, asymptomatic in children. Numerous studies, worldwide, also indicate children don’t appear to transmit the virus, but the sky is falling in....


        I'm struggling with the logic here, PP.


        Firstly, we don't know the infection rate. We haven't the first idea how many people have this disease. We're only just starting to understand the symptoms, to be honest - even the guidance on that is changing. Given the fail rates and false positives on tests to date, we don't even know how many people have the illness out of those who we supposedly know for sure do or don't.


        London has been in lockdown for weeks. In what way is it absurd to speculate that lock down has reduced infection rates? I'm genuinely baffled by the assertion.


        The idea that other country's are trying to "catch up with Sweden" seems another unfounded assertion to me. Countries that locked down earlier and harder and had lower infection and death rates than the UK are coming out of lockdown, and we still don't know how that will go.


        The UK has 10% of the recorded Coronavirus deaths in the world. And that's based on a number that is likely adrift of the reality by 50%, based on excess deaths. But even the UK Govts figures give us 34,000 people dead in a couple of months.

        The fatality figures in NHS and Social Care workers are higher than the number of soldiers killed in 9 years in Iraq.


        I think your assertion that it is benign is a huge understatement, your statements that Sweden was "right all along" short of evidence, your statements that other Govts are now deliberately imitating Sweden pure (and groundless) speculation.


        And I've not seen any other analysis that reflects these positions.


        I'm genuinely a bit baffled.
        "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

        "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


        "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

        Comment


          Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post



          I'm struggling with the logic here, PP.


          Firstly, we don't know the infection rate. We haven't the first idea how many people have this disease. We're only just starting to understand the symptoms, to be honest - even the guidance on that is changing. Given the fail rates and false positives on tests to date, we don't even know how many people have the illness out of those who we supposedly know for sure do or don't.


          London has been in lockdown for weeks. In what way is it absurd to speculate that lock down has reduced infection rates? I'm genuinely baffled by the assertion.


          The idea that other country's are trying to "catch up with Sweden" seems another unfounded assertion to me. Countries that locked down earlier and harder and had lower infection and death rates than the UK are coming out of lockdown, and we still don't know how that will go.


          The UK has 10% of the recorded Coronavirus deaths in the world. And that's based on a number that is likely adrift of the reality by 50%, based on excess deaths. But even the UK Govts figures give us 34,000 people dead in a couple of months.

          The fatality figures in NHS and Social Care workers are higher than the number of soldiers killed in 9 years in Iraq.


          I think your assertion that it is benign is a huge understatement, your statements that Sweden was "right all along" short of evidence, your statements that other Govts are now deliberately imitating Sweden pure (and groundless) speculation.


          And I've not seen any other analysis that reflects these positions.


          I'm genuinely a bit baffled.
          The whole country has been in lockdown for weeks yet the rate is falling in London and rising elsewhere which sort of runs counter to all evidence that disease spread is related to population density, unless many more Londoners have been infected and herd immunity is coming into play. If herd immunity isn’t a factor, why do you think rates are falling in London whilst they are rising elsewhere?

          There have been a variety of studies, worldwide that have indicated that the infection fatality rate is nothing like the 1%, initially, thought. And that is before we even start with the extensive evidence of quite how benign the disease is in those aged under 60. The figures for those aged under 20 take the risk of fatality to a level that is, in statistical terms, irrelevant.

          No politician is going to admit they were wrong but the rush to open up lockdowns around Europe indicates that most countries have concluded, whether they locked down very quickly like Germany, or didn’t manage in time, like Belgium that a policy of trying to stamp out Covid isn’t going to work and the disease has to be allowed to spread, in a managed way, as has happened all along in Sweden.

          When the disease has all but disappeared in London, in a months time, even though the lockdown has been lifted, or more likely is being deliberately flouted as the population realise the emperor hasn’t got any clothes on, and after we discover that millions of Londoners have had the disease without even realising, there will still be people claiming Professor Geisecke is wrong and for the first time in his life Ferguson was right. Meanwhile the rest of Europe will be getting on with things and allowing the virus to spread whilst immune systems are strong in the summer sun, all the while trying to help the vulnerable, such as my family, to protect ourselves. Something the public and private sector in the UK have done a wonderful job, efficiently, facilitating, in our experience.

          if you are looking for analysis that reflects these positions I suggest a read of the Simon Jenkins article that has been posted above. If you want to see other evidence, take a look at lockdown sceptics, I don’t agree with all that is written there, but there is some very interesting information about what is actually happening in Germany regarding excess deaths. There is also some damning revelations about the decision to release people to die in the UK care system, thereby spreading the infection, which is an absolute disgrace, and for which there should be a raft of senior resignations, at the very least.

          Last edited by the plastic paddy; 17th-May-2020, 10:28.

          Comment


            Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post

            The whole country has been in lockdown for weeks yet the rate is falling in London and rising elsewhere which sort of runs counter to all evidence that disease spread is related to population density, unless many more Londoners have been infected and herd immunity is coming into play. If herd immunity isn’t a factor, why do you think rates are falling in London whilst they are rising elsewhere?

            There have been a variety of studies, worldwide that have indicated that the infection fatality rate is nothing like the 1%, initially, thought. And that is before we even start with the extensive evidence of quite how benign the disease is in those aged under 60. The figures for those aged under 20 take the risk of fatality to a level that is, in statistical terms, irrelevant.

            No politician is going to admit they were wrong but the rush to open up lockdowns around Europe indicates that most countries have concluded, whether they locked down very quickly like Germany, or didn’t manage in time, like Belgium that a policy of trying to stamp out Covid isn’t going to work and the disease has to be allowed to spread, in a managed way, as has happened all along in Sweden.

            When the disease has all but disappeared in London, in a months time, even though the lockdown has been lifted, or more likely is being deliberately flouted as the population realise the emperor hasn’t got any clothes on, and after we discover that millions of Londoners have had the disease without even realising, there will still be people claiming Professor Geisecke is wrong. Meanwhile the rest of Europe will be getting on with things and allowing the virus to spread whilst immune systems are strong in the summer sun, all the while trying to help the vulnerable, such as my family, to protect ourselves. Something the public and private sector in the UK have done a wonderful job, efficiently, facilitating, in our experience.



            The rest of the UK is lagging London because London's global connectivity put it in the front line. Just as the rest of the US is lagging New York, and the inland Red states are only now seeing the acceleration that hit NY weeks ago.

            I think your focus on fatality rates is a bit narrow, too. Plenty of people under 60 are being intubated and put on respirators. The fact that they're not dead doesn't mean that the illness is benign. Not by a long stretch.

            Your leap from "countries that locked down hard are now making a controlled release of some measures" to "they've realised they were wrong all along" is still a highly unsubstantiated assertion, I think.

            The only countries in the world who have this largely under control are the ones that locked down hard and early, tested, traced and isolated.

            The UK hasn't done these things, has some of the highest death rates in the world, and you're asserting that they've gone too hard? The lock down has been half hearted, with millions of people at work every day, public transport in full swing etc. Testing has been a cluster****.


            I think there's a whole stack of supposition and a fair bit of wishful thinking in there.

            "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

            "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


            "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

            Comment


              PP, for all his admirable passion, generally takes the sweeping standpoint that politicians are moral cowards and can't see the noses on their own faces. This is just too simplistic. His 2nd perennial agenda is concern about treatment accessibility for those dear to him, which skews objectivity and any fair assessment of government policies.
              Stand up for the Ulcer men

              Comment


                Originally posted by tippete7trees View Post
                PP, for all his admirable passion, generally takes the sweeping standpoint that politicians are moral cowards and can't see the noses on their own faces. This is just too simplistic. His 2nd perennial agenda is concern about treatment accessibility for those dear to him, which skews objectivity and any fair assessment of government policies.
                I couldn’t care less about treatment accessibility for my daughter, as I clearly stated her cancelled appointments don’t concern me. What concerns me is that they are indicative of thousands of appointments, tests and treatments that have been cancelled and what the fall out from that might be. If my concern was my daughters well being I would be advocating the whole country stays hiding under the stairs until a vaccine is miraculously uncovered. I am arguing the very opposite. The lockdown was enacted in the UK to stop the NHS being flooded. It was a sensible and appropriate thing to do given our spending on health, relative to Sweden, meant the UK was never going to have the Swede’s confidence that they could handle the disease without house arrest. The NHS have done a brilliant job and are now operating with a 39% bed capacity, four times more than is normal at this time of year. The hospitals are empty. The lockdown has done its job in that regard.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post

                  The rest of the UK is lagging London because London's global connectivity put it in the front line. Just as the rest of the US is lagging New York, and the inland Red states are only now seeing the acceleration that hit NY weeks ago.

                  I think your focus on fatality rates is a bit narrow, too. Plenty of people under 60 are being intubated and put on respirators. The fact that they're not dead doesn't mean that the illness is benign. Not by a long stretch.

                  Your leap from "countries that locked down hard are now making a controlled release of some measures" to "they've realised they were wrong all along" is still a highly unsubstantiated assertion, I think.

                  The only countries in the world who have this largely under control are the ones that locked down hard and early, tested, traced and isolated.

                  The UK hasn't done these things, has some of the highest death rates in the world, and you're asserting that they've gone too hard? The lock down has been half hearted, with millions of people at work every day, public transport in full swing etc. Testing has been a cluster****.


                  I think there's a whole stack of supposition and a fair bit of wishful thinking in there.
                  Very few people of any age are actually being intubated. The rush for ventilators was nearly as much of a red herring as the Nightingale hospitals, which now stand empty. As do a record number of hospital beds and the A and E network.

                  Whether the nightingale hospitals will see any use in the autumn is the question, the plan is to designate them as Covid hospitals so the Normal hospitals don’t have to be separated into hot and cold sections, I understand. Professor Geisecke doesn’t expect to see much of a spike in the autumn in Sweden, whether the UK’s herd immunity will be at Swedish levels by then will determine whether we do. I will be surprised if we do.

                  So, if the lockdown has been such a shambles, why has it contributed to such a fall in the infection and death rates in London and, indeed in NY, where they know that 20% of the population has been infected?
                  Last edited by the plastic paddy; 17th-May-2020, 11:00.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post

                    I couldn’t care less about treatment accessibility for my daughter, as I clearly stated her cancelled appointments don’t concern me. What concerns me is that they are indicative of thousands of appointments, tests and treatments that have been cancelled and what the fall out from that might be. If my concern was my daughters well being I would be advocating the whole country stays hiding under the stairs until a vaccine is miraculously uncovered. I am arguing the very opposite. The lockdown was enacted in the UK to stop the NHS being flooded. It was a sensible and appropriate thing to do given our spending on health, relative to Sweden, meant the UK was never going to have the Swede’s confidence that they could handle the disease without house arrest. The NHS have done a brilliant job and are now operating with a 39% bed capacity, four times more than is normal at this time of year. The hospitals are empty. The lockdown has done its job in that regard.
                    I knew it was a mistake to come out from the back of the sofa
                    Stand up for the Ulcer men

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post

                      Very few people of any age are actually being intubated. The rush for ventilators was nearly as much of a red herring as the Nightingale hospitals, which now stand empty. As do a record number of hospital beds and the A and E network.

                      Whether the nightingale hospitals will see any use in the autumn is the question, the plan is to designate them as Covid hospitals so the Normal hospitals don’t have to be separated into hot and cold sections, I understand. Professor Geisecke doesn’t expect to see much of a spike in the autumn in Sweden, whether the UK’s herd immunity will be at Swedish levels by then will determine whether we do. I will be surprised if we do.

                      So, if the lockdown has been such a shambles, why has it contributed to such a fall in the infection and death rates in London and, indeed in NY, where they know that 20% of the population has been infected?

                      The Nightingale hospitals were a red herring because they couldn't be staffed, leading to people being turned away.

                      You're talking as if the NHS has been awash with capacity. If that's the case, why were elderly patients despatched to social care settings with no testing? That decision has killed thousands of people.

                      The cost of life to the UK will be higher than British civilian deaths in WW2.

                      I think you're being inexplicably cavalier.


                      And your reading re: bed capacity is far too simplistic. Yes, the bed occupancy in acute beds is lower. This is partly to do with reduced admissions, but actually significantly more to do with accelerated discharges as the NHS worked to get patients out of hospitals.

                      Critical care beds in the NHS are running at approaching 80% occupancy, and around half of those are on oxygen even if not on full critical care ventilation.


                      The seeming contradiction in your final question isn't really a contradiction at all. Lockdown, late as it may be, and inconsistent as it may be, will still reduce transmission. It just won't reduce it as much as it might be reduced.



                      I'm still struggling here. You seem to be contending that the virus isn't nearly as bad as feared, that everyone could go about their business with relatively nominal risk, but that for some reason Boris Johnson and the Tory Government are sitting on this knowledge, pretending it isn't the case, and continuing to pay furlough wages to millions of workers because....why?
                      "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                      "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                      "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post


                        The Nightingale hospitals were a red herring because they couldn't be staffed, leading to people being turned away.

                        You're talking as if the NHS has been awash with capacity. If that's the case, why were elderly patients despatched to social care settings with no testing? That decision has killed thousands of people.

                        The cost of life to the UK will be higher than British civilian deaths in WW2.

                        I think you're being inexplicably cavalier.


                        And your reading re: bed capacity is far too simplistic. Yes, the bed occupancy in acute beds is lower. This is partly to do with reduced admissions, but actually significantly more to do with accelerated discharges as the NHS worked to get patients out of hospitals.

                        Critical care beds in the NHS are running at approaching 80% occupancy, and around half of those are on oxygen even if not on full critical care ventilation.


                        The seeming contradiction in your final question isn't really a contradiction at all. Lockdown, late as it may be, and inconsistent as it may be, will still reduce transmission. It just won't reduce it as much as it might be reduced.



                        I'm still struggling here. You seem to be contending that the virus isn't nearly as bad as feared, that everyone could go about their business with relatively nominal risk, but that for some reason Boris Johnson and the Tory Government are sitting on this knowledge, pretending it isn't the case, and continuing to pay furlough wages to millions of workers because....why?
                        They are sitting on this knowledge for two reasons, one that they will look foolish for following the utterly discredited Ferguson and two, because they won’t be able to take the credit for “defeating” the virus if it turns out nature would have done the job anyway. And that is credit they will need in spades when the country finds out the reason the elderly were discharged to die in care homes had little to do with capacity and was actually down to a cynical attempt to dissipate those death statistics over the following few weeks.

                        You seem to working on the assumption that I am Defending the UK government. Nothing could be further from the truth. They have got numerous things wrong throughout this crisis and I think the care home situation was a wilful decision.

                        That said, it is impossible to judge where a country is at this stage of the virus’ existence. This time next year, after we have seen what happens next autumn/ winter we will be able to better gauge the Covid figures but it will take years before we see the effect that all these missed diagnoses have had. Never mind the potential economic fallout..

                        The only thing of which I am confident is that Professor Geisecke will emerge with considerably more credit than Ferguson.

                        EDIT and on the europe following Sweden thing, I will have a pint with you, for the next time we meet, hopefully at a victorious European final, that no matter the R rate, or other spurious nonsense the politicians come up with to mask their getting it so wrong around the issue of herd immunity, there will be no new lockdowns imposed anywhere because of Covid.
                        Last edited by the plastic paddy; 17th-May-2020, 12:23.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post

                          They are sitting on this knowledge for two reasons, one that they will look foolish for following the utterly discredited Ferguson and two, because they won’t be able to take the credit for “defeating” the virus if it turns out nature would have done the job anyway. And that is credit they will need in spades when the country finds out the reason the elderly were discharged to die in care homes had little to do with capacity and was actually down to a cynical attempt to dissipate those death statistics over the following few weeks.

                          You seem to working on the assumption that I am Defending the UK government. Nothing could be further from the truth. They have got numerous things wrong throughout this crisis and I think the care home situation was a wilful decision.

                          That said, it is impossible to judge where a country is at this stage of the virus’ existence. This time next year, after we have seen what happens next autumn/ winter we will be able to better gauge the Covid figures but it will take years before we see the effect that all these missed diagnoses have had. Never mind the potential economic fallout..

                          The only thing of which I am confident is that Professor Geisecke will emerge with considerably more credit than Ferguson.

                          EDIT and on the europe following Sweden thing, I will have a pint with you, for the next time we meet, hopefully at a victorious European final, that no matter the R rate, or other spurious nonsense the politicians come up with to mask their getting it so wrong around the issue of herd immunity, there will be no new lockdowns imposed anywhere because of Covid.


                          No assumption at all that you're defending the Govt - you're clearly against their central policy.


                          I hope you're right anyway, and this is just all theatre, and the huge numbers of excess deaths will be by and large the whole of it.

                          I'm not sure though that the contrast between the models is as binary, either.

                          The Swedish non-lockdown model works for the Swedes. They're a largely educated an urbane population with a highly developed sense of collective and social responsibility. Along with the other nordics and the Japanese, it's hard to imagine a population better suited to self management in this sort of situation.


                          I'm not sure that the same approach would work in the face of the belligerent exceptionalism that has a strong strain in both the UK and Ireland.
                          "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                          "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                          "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post


                            The Nightingale hospitals were a red herring because they couldn't be staffed, leading to people being turned away.

                            ....
                            This isn’t true- I know of four people (ex medics / trained doctors now pursuing research outside NHS) who were recruited, and that there were plans for military medics to staff them.

                            They were developed, and with remarkable speed, in case the NHS and NHS staff couldn’t cope, but they did- because the lockdown worked.

                            Am also not sure why it was important, when testing resources were limited and needed for NHS. Care homes had a no in/no out policy- to the extent that deaths were being certified by video, because doctors realised that once the virus got into care homes it was likely to run amok, because of the age/infirmity of residents. Care homes had contingency plans to isolate and designated separate areas for suspected cases, with those concerned offered the opportunity of going to hospital for case. That seems to have been effective.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post



                              No assumption at all that you're defending the Govt - you're clearly against their central policy.


                              I hope you're right anyway, and this is just all theatre, and the huge numbers of excess deaths will be by and large the whole of it.

                              I'm not sure though that the contrast between the models is as binary, either.

                              The Swedish non-lockdown model works for the Swedes. They're a largely educated an urbane population with a highly developed sense of collective and social responsibility. Along with the other nordics and the Japanese, it's hard to imagine a population better suited to self management in this sort of situation.


                              I'm not sure that the same approach would work in the face of the belligerent exceptionalism that has a strong strain in both the UK and Ireland.
                              One of the things I have found heartening during this crisis is that the UK population, I can’t speak for Ireland, but I get the same impression from Ireland, have been more trustworthy around social distancing etc than the credit they are given. The conformity to the lockdown in the UK has surprised me; even the few friends who have stuck their head above the parapet and questioned it wouldn’t have dreamt of breaking it, such is their respect for their friends and neighbours.

                              It has really irritated me that commentators have claimed the drop off in usage of our health systems is down to fear of the virus when, I believe, for many people, it is down to a desire to not make a fuss and divert resources from those who, they feel, really need it.

                              Let’s just hope, come September/ October we are worrying about a six nations that needs winning rather than a spike in cases of this disease. I am optimistic we will be discussing rugby.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by jagawayagain View Post

                                This isn’t true- I know of four people (ex medics / trained doctors now pursuing research outside NHS) who were recruited, and that there were plans for military medics to staff them.

                                They were developed, and with remarkable speed, in case the NHS and NHS staff couldn’t cope, but they did- because the lockdown worked.

                                Am also not sure why it was important, when testing resources were limited and needed for NHS. Care homes had a no in/no out policy- to the extent that deaths were being certified by video, because doctors realised that once the virus got into care homes it was likely to run amok, because of the age/infirmity of residents. Care homes had contingency plans to isolate and designated separate areas for suspected cases, with those concerned offered the opportunity of going to hospital for case. That seems to have been effective.


                                It is true. The London Nightingale turned back referrals and cited staff shortages for doing so.

                                ​​​​​​https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-away-patients

                                Estimates for staffing the Nightingale that I've seen ran to 16,000 people, most in areas that are already in critical shortage in the NHS.


                                I'm not sure of the link between that and care homes, but it has run amok in care homes. I can't make any sense of that paragraph. The NHS approach to the care sector has been likened to Genghis Khan catapulting plague corpses over the wall of a city. In the Daily Telegraph.


                                You're continuing to claim relative success for one of the two most failed pandemic responses in the developed world.
                                "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                                "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                                "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                                Comment

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