Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Irish General Election 2020: It's Show Time!

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Originally posted by redherring View Post

    Who do you think had the best (well maybe least worst) manifesto? I had a major issue with SF's lack of clarity on the Special Criminal Court. In other words lets do away with it. For me the the two who appealed to me most were the SD's and the Greens.
    Look, the least worst manifestos were imho from FF & FG imho. However I accept, trust issues with FF running the country again, and that FG had gone stale. Their goof ups were building in number & frequency....

    SF's manifesto is a populist disgrace. It doesn't add up, is soft on crime, e.g. they want to disassemble the very necessary special criminal court. They're run by an unelected high command, funded by dubiously attained funds, with many Irish citizens, garda & defence force personnel intimidated or harmed garnering these veryfunds e.g. Gerry McCabe, Northern Bank robbery and Quinn shake downs , all come to mind. In short, they're Trouble.

    Their La has come and unfortunately it's on our watch!!
    ____________________________________________
    Munster were great when they were Munster.

    alas they are just north munster now.......
    ____________________________________________

    Comment


      And SF didn't go to work in NI for 3 years, while the fate of it's citizens outside the EU was being decided. They're a dangerous, hypocritical disgrace imho.
      ____________________________________________
      Munster were great when they were Munster.

      alas they are just north munster now.......
      ____________________________________________

      Comment


        Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post



        I'm just not sure it's true. It's based on a very British perception of SF. The British - and the British right in particular - fundamentally don't understand the form of Nationalism in Ireland and Scotland that trends to the left politically, as they were completely isolated from the global anti-imperialist politics that dominated the IRA, PLO, ETA and others decades ago.

        Besides which, I just don't accept the view of the illegitimacy of SFs democratic participation. If we take 1969 as the kick off point for PIRA, since then the democratically elected, ever-so-civilised British state has been involved in military action in Northern Ireland, the Falklands, Bosnia, Iraq, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Sierra Leone and Libya. And that's just the stuff that they keep on the books.

        I'm no supporter of the IRA, but taking lectures on violence from a nuclear armed, militarily aggressive state that has demonstrated its willingness to participate in illegal wars of aggression just doesn't sit with me.

        They had to be held back from bombing in Syria when it became clear that they weren't sure who they were bombing or why.



        I know people have reasons to be wide about SF, and they're good ones. But with a slightly wider lens, I honestly think that Ireland should be celebrating the sort of progress that in a quarter of a century can take a violent terrorist group, bring it to the table, reach a ceasefire and standing peace arrangement, disarm it, disband it and see it commit to mainstream democratic politics.

        There's a chunk of the British right that still talks of the GFA as an act of surrender. If these people had had their way then, no progress would have been made at all.
        BB - there’s a lot in your post.

        To reiterate, the point I was taking from the article was mostly about the headline. (Surely even Awayfromhome could have read that much!)

        Sinn Fein are openly touting their win as both a protest vote against FG’s performance as well as a wish to accelerate the move to a United Ireland. Waving flags and shouting ‘up the Ra’ are, to them, consistent with the results.

        And I don’t believe it’s only a British viewpoint. I don’t have an issue with a left wing government but I am deeply uncomfortable with what Sinn Fein are already positioning together with it.

        And I’m not getting drawn into your comparison with imperialist Britain! And the GFA was a stupendous achievement.

        But I still believe the images were wrong and damaging.




        Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
        "I don't believe in fairytales," O'Connell once told me, "even though it feels like I've been lucky enough to live through a few. However it ends, I'll feel lucky."
        Donald McRae, Guardian Rugby, October 2015

        Comment


          Originally posted by Daithi View Post
          And SF didn't go to work in NI for 3 years, while the fate of it's citizens outside the EU was being decided. They're a dangerous, hypocritical disgrace imho.
          They went to work alright, the party machine is a diligent, intelligent and determined bunch of people. They all but wiped out other nationalist/ non sectarian representation in the north, and that same approach has been adapted to the peculiarities of the context in the south. They can wait, it’s all going their way, a long game has been played for a long time, FF/FG had warning enough seeing developments over the border, and the drift away from the mainstream parties to smaller parties and independents. A sense of entitlement to public support, cosy complacency and lack of strategy has cost them dearly. I really hope it doesn’t cost Ireland as well.

          Comment


            Originally posted by Perico View Post

            25.0% of valid poll. 15.6% of electorate
            They clocked up 48 quota from 40 candidates
            4 lost out, 3 in 3 seaters [dublin-rathdown, galway-east, limerick-county], one in a 4 seater [dun-laoghaire]
            Ach we're fine. The Nazis got 43% in Germany in 1933

            Comment


              The people have spoken is often quoted after an election. I wonder what the reaction will be if FF FG and GREEN party coalesce .
              will the narrative be , that's not what the people voted for? , they voted for change etc.

              Change was voted for no doubt but the ownership of who gets the democratic mandate to attempt to deliver that change has been left in the hands of the politicians not the people.
              that's what elections are for. SF had the chance to put up more candidates but chose not to . The results are what they are , the popular vote is an indicator of support but the pr voting system has delivered nearly equal seats for 3 parties .
              It could be argued that a person elected on first preference votes is more popular than one who is elected on the 15th count but at the end of the day they are both elected TD's and will enter the dail on an equal footing
              I have a feeling we are headed for a real period of instability but have a hunch we may end up with a minority left wing backed government in a confidence and supply arrangement with perhaps FF .
              Or else a FF FG green coalition.

              Comment


                Even taking PR into account in a left v centre/right between the big three, centre/ right still came a lot higher for first preference votes

                SF 24.5% compared to 22.2% for Fianna Fáil and 20.9% for Fine Gael. But ff fg still got 43.1 between them on first pref. I'm not sure that would have been any less if SF ran more candidates and the big surplus firsts for sinn Fein would have been a lot smaller if they had two candidates in those constituencies. Could well have been at pbp and greens expense

                Maybe their transfers helped FF. Didn't watch it close enough to be sure but can't imagine many went to fg
                Last edited by Hugged Rugger; 12th-February-2020, 21:24.
                "Some people don't know their easy lives... I wouldn't be so ungrateful" - Fiacre Ryan - #AutismAndMe

                Comment


                  Originally posted by RED 49 View Post
                  The people have spoken is often quoted after an election. I wonder what the reaction will be if FF FG and GREEN party coalesce .
                  will the narrative be , that's not what the people voted for? , they voted for change etc.

                  Change was voted for no doubt but the ownership of who gets the democratic mandate to attempt to deliver that change has been left in the hands of the politicians not the people.
                  that's what elections are for. SF had the chance to put up more candidates but chose not to . The results are what they are , the popular vote is an indicator of support but the pr voting system has delivered nearly equal seats for 3 parties .
                  It could be argued that a person elected on first preference votes is more popular than one who is elected on the 15th count but at the end of the day they are both elected TD's and will enter the dail on an equal footing
                  I have a feeling we are headed for a real period of instability but have a hunch we may end up with a minority left wing backed government in a confidence and supply arrangement with perhaps FF .
                  Or else a FF FG green coalition.
                  They topped so many polls because they only had one candidate in most constituencies. In quite a lot of those constituencies FF and/or FG got more first preference votes, but they were spread around multiple candidates. At the end of the day they only left 6 or 7 seats behind by not running enough candidates. If they run more candidates outside of Dublin and Waterford next time they'll split their vote and risk losing seats as none of the other surpluses were enough to bring in a second candidate.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Hugged Rugger View Post
                    Even taking PR into account in a left v centre/right between the big three, centre/ right still came a lot higher for first preference votes

                    SF 24.5% compared to 22.2% for Fianna Fáil and 20.9% for Fine Gael. But ff fg still got 43.1 between them on first pref. I'm not sure that would have been any less if SF ran more candidates and the big surplus firsts for sinn Fein would have been a lot smaller if they had two candidates in those constituencies. Could well have been at pbp and greens expense

                    Maybe their transfers helped FF. Didn't watch it close enough to be sure but can't imagine many went to fg
                    It seems that their transfers helped Solidarty/PBP candidates more than the Greens. The Greens actually beat FF to a few seats.

                    Comment


                      So had they run more candidates they would likely have been the dominant party but I still don't see many having been from Ff fg. Solidarity and greens might not have got the transfers etc
                      "Some people don't know their easy lives... I wouldn't be so ungrateful" - Fiacre Ryan - #AutismAndMe

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by blackwarrior View Post

                        BB - there’s a lot in your post.

                        To reiterate, the point I was taking from the article was mostly about the headline. (Surely even Awayfromhome could have read that much!)

                        Sinn Fein are openly touting their win as both a protest vote against FG’s performance as well as a wish to accelerate the move to a United Ireland. Waving flags and shouting ‘up the Ra’ are, to them, consistent with the results.

                        And I don’t believe it’s only a British viewpoint. I don’t have an issue with a left wing government but I am deeply uncomfortable with what Sinn Fein are already positioning together with it.

                        And I’m not getting drawn into your comparison with imperialist Britain! And the GFA was a stupendous achievement.

                        But I still believe the images were wrong and damaging.




                        Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                        I wasn't at all keen on the flag waving and singing. No issues with it in the pub, but there's a time and place, and they made themselves look like a bunch of ****wits.
                        "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                        "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                        "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by AwayFromHome View Post

                          I haven't read the article being referred to and won't be wasting my time doing so, and I'd agree with your points about the British right/establishment. However you can't be serious about thinking that the Provos have ceased to be a thing. They are very real and very much in existence. Of course they don't have the capacity to run a mainland bombing campaign like the late 70s and 80s but that does not mean that SF is not a subsidiary organization which takes its direction from the PIRA Army Council. SF are NOT a normal democratic party, you can't just join and have normal level influence as an active member.

                          I'm a fairly left wing person (though I'll accept I'm more smoked salmon than militant these days). I have no problem with a radical left agenda being pursued by a democratically elected government. I don't think that it would be worse for the Irish economy in the medium term that than the radical right agenda we've been on since Bertie's first FF/PD coalition, but when it is being pursued by the agents of a movement whose publicly stated primary objective is to obliterate the state then this has to give you cause for concern.


                          I'm genuinely sceptical about the idea that the Army Council still controls SF in any meaningful way. That said, I'm not even saying I'd vote for them myself.

                          My issue is just with the particular way that the British press (and many in Ireland) address the issue.

                          I think the long term future of both ends of the Island is best served economically and socially by unification (rather than obliteration :-) ), so SF's commitment to that isn't so much of an issue for me.


                          "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                          "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                          "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                          Comment


                            I don't think we're immanently close to unification, and I've no doubt that Shinners know that but it's important to keep it on the front burner so the different stake holders can prepare mentally. And obviously there cannot be a clamour for it if the yes vote is 50.1% but something closer to 60% could not be ignored. There'll be a no surrender brigade and the total diehards will likely go back to Bonnie Scotland or Valhalla or wherever so it's good people have plenty of time to weigh it up.
                            The irony is the genuinely socially liberal tendency of the Free State these days is closer to the soul of Presbyterianism than the Devil's buttermilk/sex banned cos it might lead to dancing etc of current free Presbyterianism.
                            There's a lull now before the real implications of Brexit hit home with Albion getting rag dolled at trade talks........then our Northern cousins will become restless again about their economy.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by tippete7trees View Post
                              I don't think we're immanently close to unification, and I've no doubt that Shinners know that but it's important to keep it on the front burner so the different stake holders can prepare mentally. And obviously there cannot be a clamour for it if the yes vote is 50.1% but something closer to 60% could not be ignored. There'll be a no surrender brigade and the total diehards will likely go back to Bonnie Scotland or Valhalla or wherever so it's good people have plenty of time to weigh it up.
                              The irony is the genuinely socially liberal tendency of the Free State these days is closer to the soul of Presbyterianism than the Devil's buttermilk/sex banned cos it might lead to dancing etc of current free Presbyterianism.
                              There's a lull now before the real implications of Brexit hit home with Albion getting rag dolled at trade talks........then our Northern cousins will become restless again about their economy.


                              It will be interesting to see how NI is impacted. If Westminster doesn't pull out the stops it could be grim. Agricultural subsidies are yet to be defined, research funding channels for Queens will be reduced, support for the film industry...there's a lot of EU cash going in there.
                              "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                              "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                              "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post

                                I wasn't at all keen on the flag waving and singing. No issues with it in the pub, but there's a time and place, and they made themselves look like a bunch of ****wits.
                                'If they look like a duck, quack like a duck, and move like a duck, ....
                                they're probably a duck!!!'

                                P.s. they are a party of fxxxwits, dangerous ones at that, soft on crime, drugs and illegal laundering of money. Hard on garda, special criminal court, and other organs of law & order and peace.
                                ____________________________________________
                                Munster were great when they were Munster.

                                alas they are just north munster now.......
                                ____________________________________________

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X