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    Originally posted by delad
    Originally posted by Fresh Start


    I'm not confusing the two things, Jews in the region and the Zionist state of Israel, I'm merely trying to correct something that is constantly put out in a very simplistic way that gives the uninformed the idea that this land always belonged to the current Palestinian population throughout history and Jews are interlopers. Neither is true and the true ownership of the land would end up being a constant battle of I see your year x and raise you year y back to biblical times and beyond.


    My other reason for mentioning dates was that people tend to pick the dates that suit their argument (both sides) whereas the whole issue of the long standing populations, how those who had been there before were no longer there etc are all issues that cannot be removed from the equation if you want a fair and balanced argument. For the Zionist interlopers it was in fact a return to the home of their forefathers. For the Palestinians it was outsiders (predominantly European [to them]) coming in and taking their land. And if you go back far enough neither people was there and neither of them actually has a right to the land so just throwing out dates based on mandates - that, as I've already pointed out weren't stuck to by the likes of the British and the Arabs when it suited them - isn't addressing the fact that the Jewish people aren't going to disappear from the area because they believe they have returned to their original home. Without addressing that issue the region won't change.

    If you are arguing that Zionists do have a legitimate claim due to "prior residence", I'm afraid that's something of a specious argument, FS. Just because Zionists claim it's the land of their fore-fore-fore(etc)...fathers doesn't mean it is. What you seem to be saying is that as long as you consider yourself culturally Jewish (ie Jewishness is not a race but a culture) , then you have claim to a part of Palestine. If you can't see the hole in that argument then I'd suggest you go to specsavers.

    I don't mean to be rude but I've heard this argument before and never have i heard anybody logically complete it without implicitly condoning all sorts of silliness. However, if you do i will apologise unreservedly and eat my hat to boot.

    Regardless, the Palestinians are native to Palestine. You are right concerning the presence of other cultures/tribes/ethnicities/races/etc living in different areas of the world pripr to current inhabitants. However, is it not a bit ridiculous to be able to lay claim to territory, where other people currently reside (and have done for generations), on the basis that you are culturally similar to people who lived there thousands of years ago?

    Not that i believe Israelis are going to leave on the basis of my argument but as you say, people who are interested in what's going on should inform themselves.

    PS I didn't say you were confusing, i said you were conflating.

    I didn't say I was proposing it as undeniable fact just making the objective point that the argument isn't as simple as this side good or that side bad.


    Also defining the Jews is more difficult than say defining the Anglo Saxons. Because of the nature of their past they have been harried, used, allowed in and then kicked out, kidnapped and generally shuntedand economically migrated around the Middle East and Europe and then the New World so the cultural attachment to the Holy Land is very different to what most of us would understand. This is a people who have been a long way from their origins but carry around a testament to their origins that retains that link. The nature of their history has made them, to a large extent, outsiders who have therefore treasured what they see as their true identity more than people who are subsumed into a society/culture would ever have done. This is one of the key reasons why this whole issue came about in the first place - that the concept of th
    Did you play in the Garden of Eden?
    Were the goalkeeper\'s gloves to you tossed?
    For it seems to me you\'re the reason,
    You\'re the reason why paradise lost.

    Comment


      [QUOTE=Combatlogo


      HD, A one-state solution ain't gonna happen.


      [/QUOTE]


      Well a two state solution isn't viable for the Palestinians, it would be a series of disconnected enclaves, this is part of the problem. A one state solution is of course aspirational but while we aspire to something why not let it be something good and positive for all?
      Free Palestine.

      Champions aren\'t made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them - a desire, a dream, a vision.
      Muhammad Ali

      Comment




        Interesting article by the Israeli ambassador, makes a lot of valid points.


        We have no quarrel with the people of Gaza ... we are exercising our right to self-defence


        Last Monday night, Irit Sheetrit had just heard the rocket warning siren and run to the nearest bus shelter in the port city of Ashdod (population 190,000). The shelter did not save her. The powerful Grad rocket, fired from Gaza by Hamas, slammed into it, killing the 39-year-old mother of four and injuring four others.


        Earlier that day, Hani Elmahadi was killed, and 14 others injured, by a similar rocket which hit a construction site in Ashkelon (population 120,000) where they worked. These deaths followed those of others in southern Israel in previous days.


        These incidents are only the tip of a huge iceberg of suffering. The rockets which killed these people are only three of 8,000 rockets and mortars which have been fired at Israel since 2001. All are fired with the intention to kill and maim, and, indeed, many have done so. For almost eight years, Israeli citizens have been under daily attack from Gaza by Hamas and other terrorist groups.


        Since August 2005, when Israel withdrew all its soldiers and all 9,000 Israeli residents from the Gaza Strip for the sake of peace, the attacks have only escalated. More than 5,000 rockets and mortar shells have been fired since that date at Israeli civilian communities in the south of Israel. Only last week, hundreds of missiles and mortars hit these towns and cities, including 80 rockets launched on a single day.


        Israel has tried everything to bring calm without using force. We agreed to a six-month truce brokered by Egypt last June. Despite violations of this by Hamas, which continued to attack Israel and smuggle in weapons and ammunition, we held to the truce. We also made it clear that we were interested in renewing it. It was Hamas that formally brought it to an end and intensified its attacks.


        Monday's tragedies also tell us something about the escalation of Hamas's war against Israeli civilians. Ashkelon is 11 miles from Gaza; Ashdod is 24 miles. These are not border communities, but bustling cities in Israel's heartland. For a long time, they were out of range of the Kassam rockets fired from Gaza. Hamas, however, took advantage of the truce to smuggle in the more powerful Grad rockets and boasted about extending the range of their attacks.


        In 2008, they succeeded in hitting Ashkelon a number of times, including the power station which supplies most of Gaza's electricity. Monday's rocket strike on Ashdod means that 650,000 Israeli civilians are now living within the range of Hamas missiles.


        The missiles kill Israeli civilians, injure many more, come close to killing children in schoolyards and school buses, hit hospitals, destroy homes and businesses, disrupt economic activity and make normal life impossible. The missiles do not discriminate between Jewish and Arab citizens of Israel, between young and old, soldier and civilian.


        Traumatised


        Thousands have been left traumatised

        Comment


          [QUOTE=Hopelessly Devoted]
          Originally posted by Combatlogo


          HD, A one-state solution ain't gonna happen.


          [/QUOTE


          Well a two state solution isn't viable for the Palestinians, it would be a series of disconnected enclaves, this is part of the problem. A one state solution is of course aspirational but while we aspire to something why not let it be something good and positive for all?


          I don't know that a one state solution would be good and positive for all. There's too many differences, too many hot heads and too many outsiders willing to pay good money to watch those face off for it to work.


          The problem is that what was originally supposed to happen to create the two states didn't happen. You then had a situation where pretty much every other state in the region spent the next 30 years trying to wipe the state of Israel off the face of the map. The problem that created is that it made the boundaries of the area so much more complicated. When the Israelis were attacked one thing they did was identify key areas that could be used to pose a threat to themselves and took those over. They also started winning, which meant they started taking ground, which meant the area they controlled continued to expand. So what was already a messy "solution" became even messier.


          I understand what you're saying about enclaves and without any real give and take it's not possible to create two separate states. However, that's what needs to be resolved, the give and take on both sides to be able to separate out the areas and create the separate states. It also needs guarantees from both sides that they will respect each other's boundaries and really that they will work to protect each others boundaries. Now that is slightly more realistic than a single state but still about as likely as George Bush and Tony Blair needing thermal underwear in the place they'll be spending the rest of eternity.
          Did you play in the Garden of Eden?
          Were the goalkeeper\'s gloves to you tossed?
          For it seems to me you\'re the reason,
          You\'re the reason why paradise lost.

          Comment


            Robert Fisk: The self-delusion that plagues both sides in this bloody conflict

            Israel has never won a war in a built-up city, that's why threats of 'war to the bitter end' are
            nonsense

            Wednesday, 31 December 2008

            During the second Palestinian "intifada", I was sitting in the offices of Hizbollah's Al-Manar
            television station in Beirut, watching news footage of a militiaman's funeral in Gaza. The
            television showed hordes of Hamas and PLO gunmen firing thousands of rounds of
            ammunition into the air to honour their latest "martyr"; and I noticed, just next to me, a
            Lebanese Hizbollah member – who had taken part in many attacks against the Israelis in
            what had been Israel's occupation zone in southern Lebanon – shaking his head.

            What was he thinking, I asked? "Hamas try to stand up to the Israelis," he replied. "But..."
            And here he cast his eyes to the ceiling. "They waste bullets. They fire all these bullets into
            the sky. They should use them to shoot at Israelis."

            His point, of course, was that Hamas lacked discipline, the kind of iron, ruthless discipline and
            security that Hizbollah forged in Lebanon and which the Israeli army was at last forced to
            acknowledge in southern Lebanon in 2006. Guns are weapons, not playthings for funerals.
            And Gaza is not southern Lebanon. It would be as well for both sides in this latest bloodbath
            in Gaza to remember this. Hamas is not Hizbollah. Jerusalem is not Beirut. And Israeli
            soldiers cannot take revenge for their 2006 defeat in Lebanon by attacking Hamas in Gaza –
            not even to help Ms Livni in the Israeli elections.

            Not that Hizbollah won the "divine victory" it claimed two years ago. Driving the roads of
            southern Lebanon as the Israelis smashed the country's infrastructure, killed more than a
            thousand Lebanese – almost all of them civilians – and razed dozens of villages, it didn't feel
            like a Hizbollah "victory" to me, theological or otherwise. But the Israelis didn't win and the
            Hizbollah were able to deploy thousands of long-range rockets as well as a missile which set
            an Israeli warship on fire and almost sank it. Hamas have nothing to match that kind of
            armoury.

            Nor do they have the self-discipline to fight like an army. Hizbollah in Lebanon has managed
            to purge its region of informers. Hamas – like all the other Palestinian outfits – is infected
            with spies, some working for the Palestinian Authority, others for the Israelis. Israel has
            successively murdered one Hamas leader after another – "targeted killing", of course, is
            their polite phrase – and they couldn't do that without, as the police would say, "inside help".
            Hizbollah's previous secretary general, Sayed Abbas Moussawi, was assassinated near Jibchit
            by a missile-firing Israeli helicopter more than a decade ago but the movement hasn't
            suffered a leader's murder in Lebanon since then. In the 34-day war of 2006, Hizbollah lost
            about 200 of its men. Hamas lost almost that many in the first day of Israel's air attacks in
            Gaza – which doesn't say much for Hamas' military precautions.

            Israel, however – always swift to announce its imminent destruction of "terrorism" – has
            never won a war in a built-up city, be it Beirut or Gaza, since its capture of Jerusalem in
            1967. And it's important to remember that the Israeli army, famous in song and legend for
            its supposed "purity of arms" and "elite" units, has proved itself to be a pretty third-rate
            army over recent years. Not since the 1973 Middle East conflict – 35 years ago – has it won
            a war. Its 1978 invasion of Lebanon was a failure, its 1982 invasion ended in disaster,
            propelling Arafat from Beirut but allowing its vicious Phalangist allies into the Sabra and
            Chatila camps where they committed mass murder. In ne
            If your religion is worth killing for, please start with yourself.

            Comment



              Originally posted by Viigand

              Israel has shown utmost restraint for seven years. But today there is no other option than a military operation. The systematic bombing of the people in Israel's towns and cities amounts to collective punishment of the Israeli people. This military operation is the exercise of our basic right to self-defence.
              I got that far and had to stop. That is among the greatest piles of b****x I've ever had the misfortune to read.
              "It’s not the team you support, it’s the club you should support. The team on the pitch will ebb and flow because that’s the nature of sport. No team has ever been successful decade on decade. The club has the history and that’s the passion you should have."

              Comment




                Originally posted by NiallGK
                Robert Fisk: The self-delusion that plagues both sides in this bloody conflict

                Israel has never won a war in a built-up city, that's why threats of 'war to the bitter end' are
                nonsense

                Who has? I think the Israelis are among the most astute militarilly in the world and that's why they currentlybomb rather than invade. They've learnt their lessons, unlike the Americans (from Vietnam to Afghanistan), and they tend not to repeat mistakes like where the invasion of the Lebanon left them. (Although they haven't learnt from the mistakes of this kind of retaliation to rockets being launched into Israel).


                Did you play in the Garden of Eden?
                Were the goalkeeper\'s gloves to you tossed?
                For it seems to me you\'re the reason,
                You\'re the reason why paradise lost.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Jenta
                  Originally posted by Viigand


                  Israel has shown utmost restraint for seven years. But today there is no other option than a military operation. The systematic bombing of the people in Israel's towns and cities amounts to collective punishment of the Israeli people. This military operation is the exercise of our basic right to self-defence.

                  I got that far and had to stop. That is among the greatest piles of b****x I've ever had the misfortune to read.

                  Not very open minded are you. At least try and see the situation from an Israeli perspective.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Jenta
                    Originally posted by Viigand


                    Israel has shown utmost restraint for seven years. But today there is no other option than a military operation. The systematic bombing of the people in Israel's towns and cities amounts to collective punishment of the Israeli people. This military operation is the exercise of our basic right to self-defence.

                    I got that far and had to stop. That is among the greatest piles of b****x I've ever had the misfortune to read.

                    A lot of it is self serving but there's a very good point made that we should all stop for a minute to ask ourselves. If rockets were constantly being fired into your town would you be so blase about the limited damage and risk they pose? If it was happeneing would any of us, if we were in the position of the Israeli government (with all the pressures and history they are operating within) be capable to be as calm, collected and non-violent in response as many on here expect them to be.


                    If I was a Palestinian would I be throwing rocks and cheering for rocket attacks? I guess I probably would. If I was an Israeli would I be launching air strikes or cheering them on? Sadly I suspect I would in their position as well.
                    Did you play in the Garden of Eden?
                    Were the goalkeeper\'s gloves to you tossed?
                    For it seems to me you\'re the reason,
                    You\'re the reason why paradise lost.

                    Comment



                      Originally posted by Fresh Start

                      A lot of it is self serving but there's a very good point made that we should all stop for a minute to ask ourselves. If rockets were constantly being fired into your town would you be so blase about the limited damage and risk they pose?
                      Not at all, but that's really only a legitimate question on a level playing field. The reason the rockets are being fired in the first place is because of the way Israel has treated, and continues to treat, the inhabitants of the Gaza strip. If I was living in the hypothetical town I'd be asking questions of the people who created the situation. To paint Israeli people as the victims like the impartial ambassador has done there is ignoring blatant facts, they are nothing but the aggressor and have no interest in peace.
                      "It’s not the team you support, it’s the club you should support. The team on the pitch will ebb and flow because that’s the nature of sport. No team has ever been successful decade on decade. The club has the history and that’s the passion you should have."

                      Comment


                        Rubbish.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Jenta
                          Originally posted by Fresh Start


                          A lot of it is self serving but there's a very good point made that we should all stop for a minute to ask ourselves. If rockets were constantly being fired into your town would you be so blase about the limited damage and risk they pose?


                          Not at all, but that's really only a legitimate question on a level playing field. The reason the rockets are being fired in the first place is because of the way Israel has treated, and continues to treat, the inhabitants of the Gaza strip. If I was living in the hypothetical town I'd be asking questions of the people who created the situation. To paint Israeli people as the victims like the impartial ambassador has done there is ignoring blatant facts, they are nothing but the aggressor and have no interest in peace.

                          I have to agree with viigand I'm afraid. The last bit of your post makes it impossible to believe that you are actually putting yourself in the place of someone in one of those towns. A good comparison is the Jean Charles de Menezes affair. A totally objective view would be that his death was a direct result of the threats and actual bombings carried out in London and was a terribel accident/tragedy that the mixture of the very real threat and the potential for mistakesalways tends to produce (in every country around the world in those situations). However,not one person involved on his family's side is thinking it's the fault of the bombers and terrorists, they're all blaming theMet Policeand I doubt if I would be any different in their place.


                          Also if you honestly think those rockets are being fired solely as some kind of retaliation for the local treatment of the Palestinians, (and not down to a bigger picture of who is behind what), then you're not the man I thought you are. The people firing those rockets are achieving absolutely nothing to stop the mis-treatment of the Palestinians and it would appear out of them, me and you the only person who doesn't know that is you. The response from Israel is exactly what those rocket attacks are aimed at achieving. The stupidity of the Israelis to either not see that or to not resist on it is breath taking. But the fact is the death of a few hundred civilians will always be deemed to be worth it in the cynical world of the organised terrorist/freedom fighter.
                          Did you play in the Garden of Eden?
                          Were the goalkeeper\'s gloves to you tossed?
                          For it seems to me you\'re the reason,
                          You\'re the reason why paradise lost.

                          Comment



                            Comparing it to the de Menezes murder is a tad disingenuous FS.

                            Thing is, the people of Palestine have repeatedly shown their willingness to make peace, they resisited for years before being forced down the route of voting for extremists. On several seperate occasions representaitves of the Palestinian people sat around negotiating tables and were offerred the sum total of f**k all in return for complete dominance from Israel. Witness the 99/00 agreement which offerred no withdrawal from the West Bank and would have attributed the same rights to there and Gaza as a Bantustan enjoyed during apartheid South Africa. Why should any self-respecting people accept those terms?

                            Where do you go then? You've called a ceasefire, shown your willingness to negotiate then been bent over the table, when does violence become acceptable?

                            Of course then that fat vegetable Ariel Sharon decided to go for a walk and the whole thing kicked off again.

                            It's not difficult to see what would achieve some sort of lasting peace but Israel has no interest in it. Gaza is the biggest internment camp in the world that's about to either be wiped off the map ar foisted onto Egypt while the West Bank is about as likely to be given up as Jerusalem or Tel- Aviv due to it's historical importance to Zionists. There are far more extremists holding power in the Knesset than in Palestine.

                            Another improtant thing to remember is that the current ceasefire was broken by Israeli aggression, the rockets, as always, are a response.

                            "It’s not the team you support, it’s the club you should support. The team on the pitch will ebb and flow because that’s the nature of sport. No team has ever been successful decade on decade. The club has the history and that’s the passion you should have."

                            Comment




                              Originally posted by Jenta
                              Comparing it to the de Menezes murder is a tad disingenuous FS.

                              Thing is, the people of Palestine have repeatedly shown their willingness to make peace, they resisited for years before being forced down the route of voting for extremists. On several seperate occasions representaitves of the Palestinian people sat around negotiating tables and were offerred the sum total of f**k all in return for complete dominance from Israel. Witness the 99/00 agreement which offerred no withdrawal from the West Bank and would have attributed the same rights to there and Gaza as a Bantustan enjoyed during apartheid South Africa. Why should any self-respecting people accept those terms?

                              Where do you go then? You've called a ceasefire, shown your willingness to negotiate then been bent over the table, when does violence become acceptable?

                              Of course then that fat vegetable Ariel Sharon decided to go for a walk and the whole thing kicked off again.

                              It's not difficult to see what would achieve some sort of lasting peace but Israel has no interest in it. Gaza is the biggest internment camp in the world that's about to either be wiped off the map ar foisted onto Egypt while the West Bank is about as likely to be given up as Jerusalem or Tel- Aviv due to it's historical importance to Zionists. There are far more extremists holding power in the Knesset than in Palestine.

                              Another improtant thing to remember is that the current ceasefire was broken by Israeli aggression, the rockets, as always, are a response.

                              To make my position clear, I'd totally separate the people firing those rockets from the Palestinian people. I don't for one second believe that most of the actions of groups like Hamas are aimed at getting a better life for the average Palestinian and if it does then it'll be a side effect not a result of a direct aim. I'm very cynical but I honestly believe that many of the people fuelling the fight on the Palestinian side will happily see those same Palestinians blown to pieces in a charnel house if it gets them what they want. I actually feel quite sorry for the average Palestinian trying to live in circumstances that make the complaints in the west about living in poverty and deprivation a total joke. The same as I felt sorry for the people of the Lebanon and I generally feel sorry for the poor sods sitting in a shelter in an Israeli village waiting for one of those rockets to turn out to be not that feeble after all. Sadly, those people living the real life of the region tend to be the last thing on the minds of the people behind air strikes and rocket attacks. Pawns is probably the best way to describe their situation.
                              Did you play in the Garden of Eden?
                              Were the goalkeeper\'s gloves to you tossed?
                              For it seems to me you\'re the reason,
                              You\'re the reason why paradise lost.

                              Comment



                                It seems we agree to an extent then. If you look back in this thread I've expressed my severe dislike for Hamas and have always thought they lack compassion for the people they claim to defend.

                                My point is that Israeli actions have created Hamas, and thus have created the situation we see today.

                                "It’s not the team you support, it’s the club you should support. The team on the pitch will ebb and flow because that’s the nature of sport. No team has ever been successful decade on decade. The club has the history and that’s the passion you should have."

                                Comment

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