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    #31
    Originally posted by CP09 View Post
    How are you so certain of this?

    Is this all purely opinion?
    That's why I stated "IMO" (in my opinion), twice.

    This is a discussion forum, right?

    I'm not even advocating that it should be done, I'm simply stating (IN MY OPINION) it is not a regulation that would stand up to a challenge (particularly in Europe) as it could lead to someone not making a living - as they are barred from playing for a country of which they are a citizen.

    And I'm done.

    Comment


      #32
      But Pony, eligibility to play for a particular country has nothing to do with citizenship. As quoted above, it is based on where one was born, where one of one's Parents or Grandparents were born or where one has lived for a set period of time.

      Comment


        #33
        Originally posted by Pony View Post
        That's why I stated "IMO" (in my opinion), twice.

        This is a discussion forum, right?

        I'm not even advocating that it should be done, I'm simply stating (IN MY OPINION) it is not a regulation that would stand up to a challenge (particularly in Europe) as it could lead to someone not making a living - as they are barred from playing for a country of which they are a citizen.

        And I'm done.
        There have been people with passports for other countries who have been barred from playing for said countries for years now and nobody has ever challenged it. It's not an issue.

        Comment


          #34
          European Court rulings like Bosman and Kolpak related to the rights of individuals to work and have normal contractual situations for their work. There is nothing in the WR regs that remove the right to work. All rugby players are free to sign contracts and earn a living under the regs.

          Does anyone have examples of where a sport federations eligibility criteria for representative sport have been successfully challenged anywhere in the world?

          Comment


            #35
            How was the young B Smith allowed to tog out for Ire and Oz? I think he was capped by Australia...
            Gwan Joe!!

            Comment


              #36
              Originally posted by Pony View Post
              IMO -- the European Court of Human rights could well hear it. Like being denied the right to a living by being barred from representing "your nation" because a sports body discriminated against you based on how long you have resided where. Does it mean Michael Bent could not play for Ireland like he did?

              Remember there are multiple bars to players getting contracts in all the leagues based on their nationality. NIQ's severely limited in Ireland. France has a list of nationalities allowed dispensation to play in the league, the rest are strictly capped.

              I'm not arguing the rights/wrongs of it, and I'd say in many countries it might be acceptable. However with European law IMO, I can't see how it would stand up to a challenge.
              Bent qualified through grand parent ruling.
              France like any country in EU has countries not in EU with dispensation but otherwise they have to follow regulations of people movement like any EU group/country.

              Originally posted by ustix View Post
              How was the young B Smith allowed to tog out for Ire and Oz? I think he was capped by Australia...
              Because you were able to do so at the time. Think IRB(World Rugby) only really tightened up the regulations around 2003 world cup

              Comment


                #37
                Right I'll give you a direct example I can think of for a hypothetical challenge(that is slightly off the point I've been making but same principle).
                AJ McGinty, an Irish citizen, establishes himself as first choice 10 at Connacht. He then chooses to play for the USA through dual citizenship, he is now NIQ, and is not offered a new contract despite his previous status. He takes Connacht/IRFU to court.
                I M O.... It is a case that would be heard and has grounds.

                A more on-point hypothetical. I could have had Polish citizenship after 3 years living here. I'm tearing it up in the national league. I get offered a contract for the national 7's team. Then have contract cancelled as I will not be allowed play by WR.

                Countries that allow citizenship after 3 years or less per google: Uruguay, Argentina, Canada, Australia, Poland.

                I'm simply stating my opinion that this WR rule if challenged could well fall, especially under the global high standard set in Europe.

                Comment


                  #38
                  In order
                  AJ became NIQ by his own choice.

                  Why would you not be allowed play sevens by WR? There is nowt to stop a Polish citizen playing for any country in the world as long as (s)he has either been born there, one parent or Grandparents was born there or they have lived there for three years at the moment and five years from 2020 except having played for the first two 15 a side teams or the 7s team of another country.

                  Again, nowhere in the WR regs is citizenship mentioned.
                  Last edited by Piquet; 25th-July-2018, 21:43.

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by Pony View Post
                    Right I'll give you a direct example I can think of for a hypothetical challenge(that is slightly off the point I've been making but same principle).
                    AJ McGinty, an Irish citizen, establishes himself as first choice 10 at Connacht. He then chooses to play for the USA through dual citizenship, he is now NIQ, and is not offered a new contract despite his previous status. He takes Connacht/IRFU to court.
                    I M O.... It is a case that would be heard and has grounds.

                    A more on-point hypothetical. I could have had Polish citizenship after 3 years living here. I'm tearing it up in the national league. I get offered a contract for the national 7's team. Then have contract cancelled as I will not be allowed play by WR.

                    Countries that allow citizenship after 3 years or less per google: Uruguay, Argentina, Canada, Australia, Poland.

                    I'm simply stating my opinion that this WR rule if challenged could well fall, especially under the global high standard set in Europe.
                    Didnt McGinty simply qualify based on 3 year rule and isnt necessarily a citizen of the United States.
                    And citizenship isnt mentioned in World Rugby regulations. The IRFU regulations are not based on citizenship so i dont see how a player like McGinty or Shane O Leary(had he played for Canada when here etc) would have a case.

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Yes, OL, AJ was born here and, according to Wikipedia, moved "on a visa" to the US in 2011.

                      He qualified for the US on residency, playing his first game in July 2015.

                      He was signed by Connacht in 2015 and played his first game for them in November 2015.

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Originally posted by Piquet View Post
                        Yes, OL, AJ was born here and, according to Wikipedia, moved "on a visa" to the US in 2011.

                        He qualified for the US on residency, playing his first game in July 2015.

                        He was signed by Connacht in 2015 and played his first game for them in November 2015.
                        Where did i say McGinty didnt qualify for USA on residency? I know full well he did. And he did move on a visa to US, to study over there.

                        Comment


                          #42
                          I'm agreeing with you, mush.

                          Comment


                            #43
                            My error on McGinty, I though he was a citizen by birth. It's a slightly different example anyway.
                            An Irish guy signs a contract with a province for 2 years. He gets capped by Scotland a month in. Now he takes the province beyond their NIQ cap. The stated policy of the IRFU is not to renew, in fact they might deny him playing time because of the cap. This IMO could allow a case that career progression/development is impeded, and a future new contract is denied. Again you're into denial of ability to earn a living.

                            Originally posted by Piquet View Post
                            In order
                            AJ became NIQ by his own choice.

                            Why would you not be allowed play sevens by WR? There is nowt to stop a Polish citizen playing for any country in the world as long as (s)he has either been born there, one parent or Grandparents was born there or they have lived there for three years at the moment and five years from 2020 except having played for the first two 15 a side teams or the 7s team of another country.

                            Again, nowhere in the WR regs is citizenship mentioned.
                            You seem to regard the rules/"laws" of rugby as being comparable to actual law, they're not. IMO WR rules are at odds with European employment law in particular circumstances. If the best player in (e.g.) Poland is a citizen but cannot play (get paid) for their country because of a WR rule, WR will lose - IMO.

                            These are specific examples with limited application, but I believe the 5 year rule will be successfully challenged at some point on limited grounds.

                            Comment


                              #44
                              But if the best player in Poland has rendered himself ineligible for Poland by playing for someone else in the knowledge that by doing so he would be unable to play for Poland, then he only has himself to blame.

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Originally posted by Pony View Post
                                My error on McGinty, I though he was a citizen by birth. It's a slightly different example anyway.
                                An Irish guy signs a contract with a province for 2 years. He gets capped by Scotland a month in. Now he takes the province beyond their NIQ cap. The stated policy of the IRFU is not to renew, in fact they might deny him playing time because of the cap. This IMO could allow a case that career progression/development is impeded, and a future new contract is denied. Again you're into denial of ability to earn a living.
                                ‘‘Tis a fine hole you’ve dug for yourself. I’d say if you keep at it you’ll be out in no time at all.

                                Seriously if someone makes a decision to play for another country/work for another employer they wouldn’t have a leg to stand on complaining about a non-renewal from their current employer no matter what industry they are in.

                                Originally posted by Pony View Post

                                You seem to regard the rules/"laws" of rugby as being comparable to actual law, they're not. IMO WR rules are at odds with European employment law in particular circumstances. If the best player in (e.g.) Poland is a citizen but cannot play (get paid) for their country because of a WR rule, WR will lose - IMO.
                                There is a difference between the laws of rugby (how a game is played) and the regulations of world rugby. The latter are actually a ‘law’ in the sense that they are a set of commonly agreed standards that freely contracting individuals and organizations (unions and clubs) agree to abide by in the conduct of their relationships.

                                You are of course entitled to you opinion but eventually you’ll have to back it up with more than ‘cause it’s what I think, and how I think things should operate’ if you want anyone else to take it seriously. Do you have any particular expertise in the area that would lend credibility to your opinion? Do you have an evidence of any of major sports lawyers lining this up for challenge? When a 2 year debate was undertaken to change the reg from 36 months to 50 did any of the many many lawyers involved raise concerns that were ignored?

                                You can quote citizenship until the cows come home but it is absolutely irrelevant. Rory Best and Iain Henderson most likely to not have Irish passports. NOBODY has a Welsh or a Scottish passport or citizenship as they don’t exist. Just like nobody has West Indian citizenship in cricket. There is a long established and legally accepted practice that sports federations set eligibility rules to suit the governance and history of the sport.

                                Comment

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