Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Ireland's search for a top 10

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #46
    Originally posted by FinnoFC View Post
    Have to say folks that this is the most interesting and enjoyable thread to read through in many a month. Certainly beats the hell out of the misery of the Ulster one of late. Don't really have much to add other than the selection of the backup 9 could well dictate or facilitate some of the 10 candidates mentioned above.

    IMO Cooney is the closest in style as well as form to Murray and really should be in the running for our 2nd choice 9 rather than wallowing as the 4th choice. His place kicking prowess and Murray's increasing skill in that area could really facilitate a backup 10 to come in and not have those duties to worry about. That bodes well for a Carbery/Tyler style player, in a sense it also increases the (admittedly slim) chances of a McPhillips/Carty getting a look in.

    If an all round 10 and safe pair of hands is needed then a Byrne or Keats would be the way to go. Steenson is a massive favourite of mine but i do think his international time has passed, and that's no reflection on his ability, it is more the time and place that is dictating it.

    The final thing
    i will say is that David Nucifora is employed and paid good money and one of his key remits is to (as much as possible) avoid the type of player bottle necks that we see currently in the Leinster senior squad at 10 and in the backrow. We all know how hard it is to get young lads to leave the Leinster system but at the end of the day it is his job and they are IRFU players ultimately. When you see how bare the cupboards are at 10 and backrow in connacht and ulster, it has to be said, he's not doing his job those provinces are suffering as a by product. (However he is by no means the main cause of their terrible seasons, not by a long chalk)
    Nail, head - good post.
    In my darkest mind recesses, I often wonder if Nuci is going to spring something like a national 'draft' system, where all Academy level players are rated nationally and then assigned those valuable places, with each province being assigned a certain minimum 'provincial quota' and then places allocated thereafter on the draft list. At present this would entail Munster and other two having a few places as of right for any local lads, but then taking those Leinster lads, especially specialist positions like 9, THP, 10 etc, who do not get into Belfield. You could argue that with Loughman and Parker, we're already adopting a modified version of this idea, along with the Exiles players - Wooton, McCarthy, and to an extent, Arnold.
    This would apply particularly if a player from outside a province has ties within that province - e.g. Din Hurley, though born and raised in Leinster, was sent to Munchins for Leaving Cert and his connection was his father, the legendary Well 2 (and 1978 reserve for AB match) Gerry Stumpy Hurley.

    Looking at UBL last weekend, was surprised that Marys had as their centre pairing against Garryowen last seasons marys schools pair, Craig Kennedy and Myles Carey. They learned more that day I'd imagine than any amount of age grade rugby, but were fluent passers and runners, and fought their corner. If Myles Carey does not make Leinster Academy, then we should have a look, as his father is from Mallow, and he has spent a lot of time there. That is what I mean by provincial connections for lads outside of the provinces.

    Comment


      #47
      Originally posted by isola ciarrai View Post
      Wasn't taken as a swipe by me for sure G2323. Your idea of blooding a 10 initially at 15 in Oz is very interesting and could show the way for a number of young fellas here, incl Tynan, Carbery and co. The second five-eighth was a foundation of the 1960s onwards AB dominance, when they had two class 10s and did not want to waste talent. One of the admirable things about the ABs is their maximisation of talent and their selectorial toughness.

      I am bemused about how Ross Byrne is seemingly regarded by Camp Joe - he was trusted by Lancaster, Cullen and coat 10 to come down to packed, 'lively' TP on Stephens Day against a strong Munster team and looked efficient, tidy and comfortable at 10, making 100% off the tee (some fairly difficult shots), plays regularly in Pro 14, and yet seems out of the picture. If one is looking at a player filling the 10 slot even semi-regularly at provincial level, then he should be in the frame for Camp Joe, and match day squads.
      For me, the other three provinces would be delighted to see Ross Byrne coming their way.
      Joe is regularly criticised here for his anything in blue stance- but, as you say, the attitude to Byrne is very odd, and close as he is to the Leinster lads , he must have a clear view about why he is preferring Joey, even Keats for camps, over Byrne. Mind you, maybe all theee Leinster lads will go to Japan!! More constructively, as discussed above by G2323, while we hate the treatment of Donnacha and Zebo, Nuci and Joe have done a good job moving the pieces about on their chess board. The squad for SA will be pretty telling.

      Comment


        #48
        Originally posted by jagawayagain View Post
        Joe is regularly criticised here for his anything in blue stance- but, as you say, the attitude to Byrne is very odd, and close as he is to the Leinster lads , he must have a clear view about why he is preferring Joey, even Keats for camps, over Byrne. Mind you, maybe all theee Leinster lads will go to Japan!! More constructively, as discussed above by G2323, while we hate the treatment of Donnacha and Zebo, Nuci and Joe have done a good job moving the pieces about on their chess board. The squad for SA will be pretty telling.
        I reckon versatility is the key there. Ross Byrne I'd imagine is a 10 and nothing else. Carbery covers 10/15. Keats has had time at 12 and 15 aswell. Similar to ABs having McKenzie ahead of Sopoaga last season even though at the time Sopoaga would have been the form 10

        Comment


          #49
          Originally posted by jagawayagain View Post
          Joe is regularly criticised here for his anything in blue stance- but, as you say, the attitude to Byrne is very odd, and close as he is to the Leinster lads , he must have a clear view about why he is preferring Joey, even Keats for camps, over Byrne. Mind you, maybe all theee Leinster lads will go to Japan!! More constructively, as discussed above by G2323, while we hate the treatment of Donnacha and Zebo, Nuci and Joe have done a good job moving the pieces about on their chess board. The squad for SA will be pretty telling.

          Is it fair to say that you could count on one hand with a few fingers to spare the players that will travel to Japan that haven't been in a Match day 23 already.

          Barring a lot of injury i dont see Byrne being one of them, Bernie is probably the most obvious to possibly be included but I cant think of anyone off hand that will make the breakthrough in the next 12 months. Maybe Cooney.

          Comment


            #50
            To be fair to Nucifora, which doesnt happen often around here, if I was Carbery or Byrne and the option of going to Ulster or Connacht and having little competition for the 10 shirt or staying in Leinster and taking my chances while training with Johnny Sexton full time waiting for opportunity to arise and being firmly in Joes sightlines i know which one I would choose. Hugos all the way because a move must be a near impossible sell.

            Comment


              #51
              Originally posted by garryowen2323 View Post
              I reckon versatility is the key there. Ross Byrne I'd imagine is a 10 and nothing else. Carbery covers 10/15. Keats has had time at 12 and 15 aswell. Similar to ABs having McKenzie ahead of Sopoaga last season even though at the time Sopoaga would have been the form 10
              yes, probably critical if you’re not a starter, and great for younger guys as a way of getting matchday experience- however, game time in your best position is also critical to development, and (in this case) time outside the starting 9, for those further on versatility is a good way to a bench spot, or a seat on the plane. After a while that label sticks though... and further improvement is hampered by covering more places (eg Earls).

              Comment


                #52
                Originally posted by lawrence View Post
                To be fair to Nucifora, which doesnt happen often around here, if I was Carbery or Byrne and the option of going to Ulster or Connacht and having little competition for the 10 shirt or staying in Leinster and taking my chances while training with Johnny Sexton full time waiting for opportunity to arise and being firmly in Joes sightlines i know which one I would choose. Hugos all the way because a move must be a near impossible sell.
                Especially given Sexton's age and mileage

                Comment


                  #53
                  Originally posted by isola ciarrai View Post
                  Nail, head - good post.
                  In my darkest mind recesses, I often wonder if Nuci is going to spring something like a national 'draft' system, where all Academy level players are rated nationally and then assigned those valuable places, with each province being assigned a certain minimum 'provincial quota' and then places allocated thereafter on the draft list. At present this would entail Munster and other two having a few places as of right for any local lads, but then taking those Leinster lads, especially specialist positions like 9, THP, 10 etc, who do not get into Belfield. You could argue that with Loughman and Parker, we're already adopting a modified version of this idea, along with the Exiles players - Wooton, McCarthy, and to an extent, Arnold.
                  This would apply particularly if a player from outside a province has ties within that province - e.g. Din Hurley, though born and raised in Leinster, was sent to Munchins for Leaving Cert and his connection was his father, the legendary Well 2 (and 1978 reserve for AB match) Gerry Stumpy Hurley.

                  Looking at UBL last weekend, was surprised that Marys had as their centre pairing against Garryowen last seasons marys schools pair, Craig Kennedy and Myles Carey. They learned more that day I'd imagine than any amount of age grade rugby, but were fluent passers and runners, and fought their corner. If Myles Carey does not make Leinster Academy, then we should have a look, as his father is from Mallow, and he has spent a lot of time there. That is what I mean by provincial connections for lads outside of the provinces.
                  You keep bringing up Marys and those kids from last weekend... I dont see Munster taking on either. And yeah those guys and any out of school/age grade rugby a year or two will learn far more in UBL than any amount of age grade rugby as the physicality/speed etc is a step up in every way.

                  I dont see any of the provinces wanting a draft system for the academies. The provinces look within and add from there and only then look beyond that.

                  Comment


                    #54
                    Originally posted by ormond lad View Post
                    You keep bringing up Marys and those kids from last weekend... I dont see Munster taking on either. And yeah those guys and any out of school/age grade rugby a year or two will learn far more in UBL than any amount of age grade rugby as the physicality/speed etc is a step up in every way.

                    I dont see any of the provinces wanting a draft system for the academies. The provinces look within and add from there and only then look beyond that.
                    Mentioned them because in my time watching AIL/UBL one tends not to see a team with three starters straight out of school, and one has a Munster connection. (The other lad, at 7, was Watters). There has been speculation here about two lads who are centres possibly not taking the Academy route, and if the centre cupboard is bare, think Carey might be worth a look.
                    For me, the issue is not how many places are available in Munster Academy each year but whether there are players of sufficient promise locally to fill all those places. It is an expensive business to maintain a lad in the Academy. Just wonder if bringing in Parker, Loughman, James Mccarthy, those SA lads, and the release of so many lads today is a refocus?

                    Comment


                      #55
                      Originally posted by isola ciarrai View Post
                      Mentioned them because in my time watching AIL/UBL one tends not to see a team with three starters straight out of school, and one has a Munster connection. (The other lad, at 7, was Watters). There has been speculation here about two lads who are centres possibly not taking the Academy route, and if the centre cupboard is bare, think Carey might be worth a look.
                      For me, the issue is not how many places are available in Munster Academy each year but whether there are players of sufficient promise locally to fill all those places. It is an expensive business to maintain a lad in the Academy. Just wonder if bringing in Parker, Loughman, James Mccarthy, those SA lads, and the release of so many lads today is a refocus?
                      There quite often can be 3 starters at 18/19 just out of youths/schools rugby. I really dont think we will be looking at a guy like Carey even with a Munster connection like parents.
                      If we're looking at centres there is several in Munster clubs like Evan O Gorman who is in the sub academy. Then there is Sean French, PBC Cork centre.

                      Comment


                        #56
                        Originally posted by garryowen2323 View Post
                        Bloody punctuation Nazi!!

                        Cathal Marsh must be about 6th or 7th choice 10 at Leinster now is he? Destined for a Championship run-out against Declan Cusack soon surely?
                        5th I'd say. Frawley seems to have very quickly jumped him in the queue and you'd imagine there's not any room for more than four 10s, especially with Nacewa able to play there too. He'd do well to try and get a move within the Ireland system.

                        Comment


                          #57
                          Originally posted by whimpersnap View Post
                          5th I'd say. Frawley seems to have very quickly jumped him in the queue and you'd imagine there's not any room for more than four 10s, especially with Nacewa able to play there too. He'd do well to try and get a move within the Ireland system.
                          Back-up at Connacht rather than Horwitz would've been my suggestion. Four 10s is more than enough. We have 4/5 too but they're mostly suffering from injury or inability-to-kick-on-from-u20s syndrome

                          Comment


                            #58
                            Originally posted by garryowen2323 View Post
                            Back-up at Connacht rather than Horwitz would've been my suggestion. Four 10s is more than enough. We have 4/5 too but they're mostly suffering from injury or inability-to-kick-on-from-u20s syndrome
                            Send Keatley to Ulster :)

                            Comment


                              #59
                              Originally posted by whimpersnap View Post
                              Send Keatley to Ulster :)
                              2 for 1 deal - Jackson and Olding? (ahem)

                              Comment


                                #60
                                Originally posted by garryowen2323 View Post
                                My comment wasn't meant as a dig at Tynan, Airey or Munsters in case people thought that btw. I was genuinely interested as an outsider to know why he wasn't starting at 10. Sadly I'm out of the AIL loop for the past 7 years now and reliant on 2 paragraph media reports
                                Sorry I knew what you meant. I probably only watch Munsters 3 or 4 times a season now. But AFAIK that's what it looks like to me. Tynan is the more accomplished 15. I'd love to see how good he could be with a run at 10 with Goggin outside him and an experienced backs coach.
                                He's a guy who gets up at six o'clock in the morning regardless of what time it is.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X