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What now? Ireland 2015.

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  • whimpersnap
    replied
    I wouldn't be surprised if SOB's return sees him move to 6 and POM to the bench.

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  • Ratbastard
    replied
    Given that Henry has been the starting 7 all tournament and will probably make way for SOB upon is return, we agree that the argument is about a bench spot, right? Schmidt places a high value on utility on the bench. So, it comes down to who can cover the positions to a satisfactory level, knows the positions and has done their work (on and off the field) so that it is clear that they really know their roles if called upon.

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  • mr chips
    replied
    Originally posted by Ratbastard View Post
    Strawman arguments. Schmidt simply wanted more utility on the bench, period. Madigan got the nod not because he is a better 10 (Schmidt said Jackson would start if Sexton were unavailable), but because Madigan also covers 12, 15. Jordi Murphy has played all 3 back-row positions as a pro.
    As has TOD. He was back & forth on either flank for a fair while (as was POM) before finally settling into 7, but he has played a lot at 6 and I'm pretty sure he had a couple of games at 8 too.

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  • HenryFitz
    replied
    Henderson covered 6, so only positions 7 and 8 were in question. Murphy doesn't cover 7, as he showed in the Castres match, and O'Donnell doesn't cover 8. O'Mahony and Henry cover all the positions. How much versatility did he need?

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  • Ratbastard
    replied
    Originally posted by Stringer9 View Post
    I'm so tired of this. Tired of people making assumptions that players will be given a go now that the 6 Nations is over. It's guess work. I don't think many will get much of a chance, and that's a real shame, because it's Schmidt's loss, it's Ireland's loss. But that's my opinion, where as some people are making points like they're facts when they're just as clueless as the rest of us.
    But fck him. If Schmidt doesn't want to pick our players, then just fck him, it's his loss.

    Just tired of it all now.
    I think your dislike of Schmidt has been evident in your posts from early days.

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  • Ratbastard
    replied
    Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post
    Jackson did nothing to get dropped in favour of Madigan. TOD did nothing to get dropped in favour of Murphy. It's a disservice to those players to insist that they were the victims of Schmidt's exacting demands and didn't come up to his mark, which is the notion being pushed by those seeking to create an over-elaborate rationale for some of those calls.
    Strawman arguments. Schmidt simply wanted more utility on the bench, period. Madigan got the nod not because he is a better 10 (Schmidt said Jackson would start if Sexton were unavailable), but because Madigan also covers 12, 15. Jordi Murphy has played all 3 back-row positions as a pro.

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  • mr chips
    replied
    Originally posted by Ratbastard View Post
    Frankly, you are the only banging on about some imaginary esoteric matrix.

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  • whimpersnap
    replied
    Originally posted by redherring View Post
    I really don't feel like getting into any provincial sh!te. He may have bored in a bit but nothing too major. The point being he had him in big trouble regardless of illegality. Now I would go out on a limb and say DF or SA would have suffered a similar fate. My question was with our next in line so far behind Ross in terms of scrummaging can we afford to pick Ross consistently until the RWC? My opinion is no as he is pushing on now and will be lasting games only 50 - 60 mins in the next 12 months or so. If he gets injured Ireland are in big trouble
    Well I'm not getting into anything provincial. I'm just saying Moore has, for a good chunk of this year, looked like ousting Ross, who in turn dealt very comfortably with both French looseheads and all but humiliated Domingo. Moore's inexperience showed in how he was played by Debaty and I suspect maybe a couple of our options at other provinces would be a bit more wily.

    Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post
    I wasn't talking about that Italian try. I was talking about the one where Rob missed his tackle and Dave succeeded in giving the winger his inside by over-running his tracking line.
    They only scored one try?

    Watch the French try again. At the point where Rob goes up to challenge the kicker, there are two or three players inside those competing for the ball and outside DK. He responds too slowly to the threat, staying on the "last man" despite the kick having changed the shape of the attack.

    He was caught for pace and position, and there were three french players who'd have beaten him to a ball that always had a chance of coming loose given that there were two men competing in mid air for it.
    We'll just have to disagree, I'm not sure what other position you'd expect him to take up.

    As I've said elsewhere, the overall selection decisions made were vindicated. Kearney clearly offered JS enough to retain his place. But was categorically not retained on the sort of "doesn't do the flash stuff, but solid on the basics and doesn't make errors" basis that you and others have superimposed on Schmidt's selection policy.
    I didn't say he doesn't make errors. I think he's a very solid player who knows his role within the team and has certain attributes that aren't fashionable but are nevertheless important for the team. Ex-pros like Quinlan and Jackman have gone out of their way to say how impressed they've been by him. I'd have Earls ahead of him in a heartbeat and Fitzgerald too, but I can see that he does his job well.

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  • Ratbastard
    replied
    Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post
    All horse ****, I'm afraid. TOD clears rucks and executes the basics. Joe went with what he knows. And you gloss over the fact that Kearney made flat out defensive errors that were droppable of errors, for my money. His doubling up on the runner vs England was an U-16 error. You're creating an utterly imaginary performance matrix against which players are supposedly measured, ignoring the merits of those excluded and the errors of those retained.

    Irish wingers faster than Kearney in the pro era: Bowe, Earls, Zebo, Trimble, Kelly, Horgan, Horgan, Fitzgerald, Hickie, Carney. Any more for any more?

    The supposed rationale for Kearney's retention doesn't stNd up in the face of his obviously **** ups.

    The reality is that Joe has gone with what he knows, even when it's average. Dave missed tackles, ****ed up his positioning in key phases, got chased down by a lock. Fundamentals my bollox, in short.
    Frankly, you are the only banging on about some imaginary esoteric matrix. Player after player has come out and said that Schmidt's focus is on the fundamentals, and getting the details right. From Sean O'Brien: "It's basic stuff, but it's basics done to perfection. That's what he is aiming for, to do everything well for every minute of the game. That's where other coaches might not be onto you all of the time - about your detail and where you are meant to be and what your job is". So frankly, a big bollox to your "Fundamentals, my bollox."

    Average Dave, limited as he is, has come in for praise from most all quarters outside this site for his performance against the ABs, and in the the 6Ns. There are arguably much better options with Bowe, Fitz and Zebo returning. For the most part, Kearney played well. He beat the first defender, always kept he ball alive, was strong in the air and on the ground defensively. He wasn't spectacular, but he played well. Few, would label his contributions as "flat out defensive errors that were droppable of errors." Your emphasis on his "doubling-up" on the runner when more glaring errors were made on the English try seems merely to be a very small hammer with which you bang on about your narrative.. namely your "Fundamentals my bollox."

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  • Stringer9
    replied
    Originally posted by Ron Swanson View Post
    Thats a classic in fairness
    Way to quote all my post.. But I think it's some of my better work in fairness. ;)

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  • Ron Swanson
    replied
    Originally posted by Stringer9 View Post
    It's guess work. I don't think many will get much of a chance
    Thats a classic in fairness

    Leave a comment:


  • Stringer9
    replied
    I'm so tired of this. Tired of people making assumptions that players will be given a go now that the 6 Nations is over. It's guess work. I don't think many will get much of a chance, and that's a real shame, because it's Schmidt's loss, it's Ireland's loss. But that's my opinion, where as some people are making points like they're facts when they're just as clueless as the rest of us.
    But fck him. If Schmidt doesn't want to pick our players, then just fck him, it's his loss.

    Just tired of it all now.
    Last edited by Stringer9; 21-March-2014, 13:52.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by whimpersnap View Post
    I've been compelled to defend Kearney far more than I'd like to on this forum, but to be frank the things he's being held responsible for have been bat**** at times, and this is the worst of the lot. Fair enough, he slipped against Italy, but it was a 2/3-on-1 four yards from the tryline. The only way Italy weren't scoring a try there was if they monumentally ****ed up. The France one is even more bizarre. He ran halfway across the pitch to tackle a full back who is, by definition, unmarked. It was a world class try executed perfectly - just give France their due. I'm actually stunned that a player is being derided for having the cheek to not exercise superhuman ability. There are plenty of legitimate criticisms of DK to be made - I just don't understand why people need to create insane **** to do it.


    Debaty was boring in so far from the side that he wasn't even engaged with his second row. With more experience Moore would probably have figured him out, but that doesn't take away from the fact it was grossly illegal and any decent scrum ref would have put a stop to it.

    Understatement of the year!!!


    I found some of the Anti Joe stuff very painful . . . .I found more of the 'Support the Bleen' at all costs even more painful.

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  • Balla Boy
    replied
    Originally posted by whimpersnap View Post
    I've been compelled to defend Kearney far more than I'd like to on this forum, but to be frank the things he's being held responsible for have been bat**** at times, and this is the worst of the lot. Fair enough, he slipped against Italy, but it was a 2/3-on-1 four yards from the tryline. The only way Italy weren't scoring a try there was if they monumentally ****ed up. The France one is even more bizarre. He ran halfway across the pitch to tackle a full back who is, by definition, unmarked. It was a world class try executed perfectly - just give France their due. I'm actually stunned that a player is being derided for having the cheek to not exercise superhuman ability. There are plenty of legitimate criticisms of DK to be made - I just don't understand why people need to create insane **** to do it.


    Debaty was boring in so far from the side that he wasn't even engaged with his second row. With more experience Moore would probably have figured him out, but that doesn't take away from the fact it was grossly illegal and any decent scrum ref would have put a stop to it.
    I wasn't talking about that Italian try. I was talking about the one where Rob missed his tackle and Dave succeeded in giving the winger his inside by over-running his tracking line.

    Watch the French try again. At the point where Rob goes up to challenge the kicker, there are two or three players inside those competing for the ball and outside DK. He responds too slowly to the threat, staying on the "last man" despite the kick having changed the shape of the attack.

    He was caught for pace and position, and there were three french players who'd have beaten him to a ball that always had a chance of coming loose given that there were two men competing in mid air for it.

    It's not insane ****, and your increasingly ferocious assertions won't make it so. They are examples of the split second judgements in defence that a top class winger gets right, and that a solid club pro like Kearney gets caught on.

    We conceded 4 tries in the tournament. He should definitely have stopped one of them, should really have stopped another and should have given himself a far better chance of stopping a third. That's some going for someone who, apparently, is in the side because he can be relied on to do the fundamentals at a level above his rivals.

    As I've said elsewhere, the overall selection decisions made were vindicated. Kearney clearly offered JS enough to retain his place. But was categorically not retained on the sort of "doesn't do the flash stuff, but solid on the basics and doesn't make errors" basis that you and others have superimposed on Schmidt's selection policy.

    Leave a comment:


  • redherring
    replied
    Originally posted by whimpersnap View Post

    Debaty was boring in so far from the side that he wasn't even engaged with his second row. With more experience Moore would probably have figured him out, but that doesn't take away from the fact it was grossly illegal and any decent scrum ref would have put a stop to it.
    I really don't feel like getting into any provincial sh!te. He may have bored in a bit but nothing too major. The point being he had him in big trouble regardless of illegality. Now I would go out on a limb and say DF or SA would have suffered a similar fate. My question was with our next in line so far behind Ross in terms of scrummaging can we afford to pick Ross consistently until the RWC? My opinion is no as he is pushing on now and will be lasting games only 50 - 60 mins in the next 12 months or so. If he gets injured Ireland are in big trouble

    Leave a comment:

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