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    Given that Henry has been the starting 7 all tournament and will probably make way for SOB upon is return, we agree that the argument is about a bench spot, right? Schmidt places a high value on utility on the bench. So, it comes down to who can cover the positions to a satisfactory level, knows the positions and has done their work (on and off the field) so that it is clear that they really know their roles if called upon.

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      I wouldn't be surprised if SOB's return sees him move to 6 and POM to the bench.

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        Originally posted by Ratbastard View Post
        Given that Henry has been the starting 7 all tournament and will probably make way for SOB upon is return, we agree that the argument is about a bench spot, right? Schmidt places a high value on utility on the bench. So, it comes down to who can cover the positions to a satisfactory level, knows the positions and has done their work (on and off the field) so that it is clear that they really know their roles if called upon.
        SOB is irrelevant. I think you must have copy-pasted the last bit about five times now. You haven't a clue why he changed the bench. Nothing changed between week 2 and week 3 that we know about. Unless you've got some insider knowledge to share.

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          Originally posted by whimpersnap View Post
          I wouldn't be surprised if SOB's return sees him move to 6 and POM to the bench.
          I wouldn't be surprised if Ferris's return sees Henry left out of the squad altogether. SOB's performance against the ABs was better than any performance by any Irish flanker this season. At 7, which is his club position, and has been for 3 seasons now.

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            Originally posted by Ratbastard View Post
            Strawman arguments. Schmidt simply wanted more utility on the bench, period. Madigan got the nod not because he is a better 10 (Schmidt said Jackson would start if Sexton were unavailable), but because Madigan also covers 12, 15. Jordi Murphy has played all 3 back-row positions as a pro.
            Do you know what a straw man is?

            Assuming that Schmidt was a late convert to utility having overlooked Madigan for earlier games, then flexibility is a perfectly valid reason for drafting Madigan in.


            But we keep being told, by yourself and others, that the selection decisions were driven by Joe's preference for guys who can execute his game plan, don't make errors and get the basics right. That's what we were told Kearney's selection was based on.

            And that is, quite specifically, the contention that I'm objecting to. There's no straw man involved.
            "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

            "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


            "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

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              Originally posted by HenryFitz View Post
              I wouldn't be surprised if Ferris's return sees Henry left out of the squad altogether. SOB's performance against the ABs was better than any performance by any Irish flanker this season. At 7, which is his club position, and has been for 3 seasons now.
              I don't know, I think Schmidt has a lot of time for Henry and sees him as the kind of player who enables those around him to play with more freedom.

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                Originally posted by Red Hand Hero View Post
                Two very big statements there. I would make the connection between the two that you are citing the dropping of O'Donnell, an out and out openside, for Murphy and the non-dropping of Daverage for his defensive howler against England as a baffling inconsistency with Schmidt's approach?

                I would take your point that Dave's double up on Brown was quite an elementary error, that and getting caught by a lock, were two moments in the Championship I am sure he would rather forget. If you look at the macro rather than the micro, or simply the English game versus French game, you could make a fairly decent argument that the mistakes cancelled each other out. No doubt Dave was wrong against England but his contribution to rush Pape was of equal significance in the Championship standings. If he had nailed Care but slightly missed the rush on Pape would we be having this argument? Perhaps, perhaps not. My personal take would be the shoot on Pape was as impressive as the double up on Brown was careless so he's back to evens.

                When I say that the selections ultimately vindicate Schmidt's selections, for HenryFitz's attention, it doesn't mean that if we lost he was biased it means that if we lost his selections would have come under more scrutiny as is generally the case in any team sport. There could have been speculation if Zebo had been picked he might have gassed Launchesbury in the final few minutes at Twickers or that had we lost in France that bringing on O'Donnell and Ryan for say Henry and Toner might have won the day out but ultimately it is all speculation.

                The facts on the table are that a Schmidt coached and selected Ireland won the 6N Championship. Players he didn't 'know' Best, POC, O'Mahony, Henry, Murray and Trimble played fairly influential roles in this as did a number of those he 'knew'. The obvious contenders such as Healy, Heaslip, BOD and Kearney delivered as expected. Crucially however the maligned Ross, Toner, D'Arcy and Daverage also put in some very good performances.

                Beyond the starters Cronin doesn't look out of his depth at this level any more, McGrath is a pretty decent prospect, Moore did well Debaty aside, Henderson made serious impact in every match, Reddan looked capable, Jackson did well when called upon, Madigan held his nerve in Paris and McFadden did what was required of him at 12, 13 and 14.

                Now I am sure you could argue we missed an opportunity to give Kilcyone, for example, more exposure but I fully expect that is what Argentina will be used for that. It is in nobody's best interest to have a very narrow pool of players many of whom are inexperienced but in terms of injury, and DK's previous selections, we are not in a position where we are likely to have to call in complete green-horns like Marshall/Jackson were last season with 0 test experience.

                I would be very surprised if there was any player selected in the Irish RWC squad that had 0 test caps with perhaps the exception of Hanrahan. In every other position we are in a position of, at least, acceptable strenght in depth.

                As I have opined elsewhere would you have believed, 12 months ago, that we would genuinely be debating where we were going to slot a fit O'Brien and Ferris into an Irish backrow such was the levels of Henry and O'Mahony?

                There is no guarantee to success but I personally think we are in a pretty good place. We have a great opportunity to introduce more players into the squad environment down in Argentina including previous certs in the form of Earls, Bowe, Ryan and Ferris who have seen limited game time this season. We have an AI series to further build towards another tilt at a 6N title where we have |England and France at home whilst travelling to a Wales team that will almost certainly in transition, and a Scots and Italian side that will probably be poor enough again.

                After that? The RWC and we all know what Ustix and PP are gunning for there.
                ustix, RHH, ustix.
                Accuracy is all on the march to ultimate glory in Twickers.
                Gwan Joe!!

                Comment


                  Originally posted by mr chips View Post
                  As has TOD. He was back & forth on either flank for a fair while (as was POM) before finally settling into 7, but he has played a lot at 6 and I'm pretty sure he had a couple of games at 8 too.
                  Indeed TOD has played right across the back row for Munster. I think the more likely reason for TOD benching in the first place was to cover Henry, who JS had most concern about playing at this level. When Henry acquitted himself quite nicely in the first few games, Murphy was introduced. I suspect that Murphy may have been there from the start had SOB been fit.

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                    Originally posted by HenryFitz View Post
                    Henderson covered 6, so only positions 7 and 8 were in question. Murphy doesn't cover 7, as he showed in the Castres match, and O'Donnell doesn't cover 8. O'Mahony and Henry cover all the positions. How much versatility did he need?
                    Maybe he just thinks rightly or wrongly that Murphy is better then TOD.

                    Seems the obvious explanation to me. Its hardly rocket science
                    I always knew Madigan was a closet Scrum Half. Ignore All things that suggest Continuity.

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                      Originally posted by The Outlaw View Post
                      Maybe he just thinks rightly or wrongly that Murphy is better then TOD.

                      Seems the obvious explanation to me. Its hardly rocket science
                      He's got ample coverage at 6&7 nobody to cover for Jamie. Jordi or Copeland gonna need to step up for the rwc
                      I am the million man.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by The Outlaw View Post
                        Maybe he just thinks rightly or wrongly that Murphy is better then TOD.

                        Seems the obvious explanation to me. Its hardly rocket science
                        I agree, Jordi must be great in training
                        My computer thinks I'm gay
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                          Originally posted by Cowboy View Post
                          He's got ample coverage at 6&7 nobody to cover for Jamie. Jordi or Copeland gonna need to step up for the rwc
                          I doubt it will Copeland he's way off Schimdt's type of game.
                          I always knew Madigan was a closet Scrum Half. Ignore All things that suggest Continuity.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Cowboy View Post
                            He's got ample coverage at 6&7 nobody to cover for Jamie. Jordi or Copeland gonna need to step up for the rwc
                            Except that Jamie played every minute of every game. POM played 8 during the summer tour and New Zealand when Jamie got injured.

                            Chris Henry played a fair bit at 8 for Ulster (when Roger Wilson headed off to Northampton).

                            Both have played more there than Jordi Murphy has.

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                              pom or henry at 8 don't count for much outside of the Schmidthouse.
                              I am the million man.

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                                Originally posted by jeepers View Post
                                Except that Jamie played every minute of every game. POM played 8 during the summer tour and New Zealand when Jamie got injured.

                                Chris Henry played a fair bit at 8 for Ulster (when Roger Wilson headed off to Northampton).

                                Both have played more there than Jordi Murphy has.
                                Just have to accept JS thinks Jordi is quite good
                                I always knew Madigan was a closet Scrum Half. Ignore All things that suggest Continuity.

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