Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

What now? Ireland 2015.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post
    I'm glad we won. I'm glad Dave Kearney has a medal. That doesn't excuse flabby, inconsistent, rhetorically incontinent "analysis" from those seeking to assert that, because he won, all of his decisions must self evidently have been both correct and profound.
    I feel that I've been forced into the 'Joe apologists' (tm) camp by the unjustified negativity from a lot of posters on here.

    My perspective is that because we won it proves that Joe's selection criteria were maybe not perfect, but good enough.

    I think it's a bit churlish to keep harping on about a few selection decisions that people disagree with. I think he's earned the benefit of the doubt (at the very least) until the squad for the summer tour is announced.

    Comment


      There's a difference between genuine critique of a coach (which is always warranted, even after a good championship) and some of the the bile that has been directed at some of the Leinster players invovled

      I've critiqued plenty of Schmidts decisions but I wouldn't stoop to the pathetically bitter levels of some people here. They're in the minority but they're frankly an embarrassment and I just hope that people don't the majority of Munster's supporters are as small minded and bitter as the minority here who would have only loved if we had lost at the weekend so that they could stick the knife into Schmidt and the Leinster players on the team
      Last edited by fishooks12; 20-March-2014, 22:27.
      AKA Ugo Monye Spacecraft Experience

      Comment


        Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post
        No need to. I'm glad we won the tournament. That doesn't mean he should have ****ed himself in on top of his full back and allowed a support runner to disappear past him under the sticks. That was a straight out under age **** up, and no number of trophies won by his team will erase it.


        The notion that Joe is prioritising flawless execution of the fundamentals over flair is self evidently not true.

        He forgave errors in his starting team. He forgave the inability of his bench to chase a three point gap over twenty minutes against England.

        What he did, very obviously, was play the players he knows. All of the other stuff being heaped on top by eager posters doesn't bear scrutiny for a second.


        I'm glad we won. I'm glad Dave Kearney has a medal. That doesn't excuse flabby, inconsistent, rhetorically incontinent "analysis" from those seeking to assert that, because he won, all of his decisions must self evidently have been both correct and profound.
        Two very big statements there. I would make the connection between the two that you are citing the dropping of O'Donnell, an out and out openside, for Murphy and the non-dropping of Daverage for his defensive howler against England as a baffling inconsistency with Schmidt's approach?

        I would take your point that Dave's double up on Brown was quite an elementary error, that and getting caught by a lock, were two moments in the Championship I am sure he would rather forget. If you look at the macro rather than the micro, or simply the English game versus French game, you could make a fairly decent argument that the mistakes cancelled each other out. No doubt Dave was wrong against England but his contribution to rush Pape was of equal significance in the Championship standings. If he had nailed Care but slightly missed the rush on Pape would we be having this argument? Perhaps, perhaps not. My personal take would be the shoot on Pape was as impressive as the double up on Brown was careless so he's back to evens.

        When I say that the selections ultimately vindicate Schmidt's selections, for HenryFitz's attention, it doesn't mean that if we lost he was biased it means that if we lost his selections would have come under more scrutiny as is generally the case in any team sport. There could have been speculation if Zebo had been picked he might have gassed Launchesbury in the final few minutes at Twickers or that had we lost in France that bringing on O'Donnell and Ryan for say Henry and Toner might have won the day out but ultimately it is all speculation.

        The facts on the table are that a Schmidt coached and selected Ireland won the 6N Championship. Players he didn't 'know' Best, POC, O'Mahony, Henry, Murray and Trimble played fairly influential roles in this as did a number of those he 'knew'. The obvious contenders such as Healy, Heaslip, BOD and Kearney delivered as expected. Crucially however the maligned Ross, Toner, D'Arcy and Daverage also put in some very good performances.

        Beyond the starters Cronin doesn't look out of his depth at this level any more, McGrath is a pretty decent prospect, Moore did well Debaty aside, Henderson made serious impact in every match, Reddan looked capable, Jackson did well when called upon, Madigan held his nerve in Paris and McFadden did what was required of him at 12, 13 and 14.

        Now I am sure you could argue we missed an opportunity to give Kilcyone, for example, more exposure but I fully expect that is what Argentina will be used for that. It is in nobody's best interest to have a very narrow pool of players many of whom are inexperienced but in terms of injury, and DK's previous selections, we are not in a position where we are likely to have to call in complete green-horns like Marshall/Jackson were last season with 0 test experience.

        I would be very surprised if there was any player selected in the Irish RWC squad that had 0 test caps with perhaps the exception of Hanrahan. In every other position we are in a position of, at least, acceptable strenght in depth.

        As I have opined elsewhere would you have believed, 12 months ago, that we would genuinely be debating where we were going to slot a fit O'Brien and Ferris into an Irish backrow such was the levels of Henry and O'Mahony?

        There is no guarantee to success but I personally think we are in a pretty good place. We have a great opportunity to introduce more players into the squad environment down in Argentina including previous certs in the form of Earls, Bowe, Ryan and Ferris who have seen limited game time this season. We have an AI series to further build towards another tilt at a 6N title where we have |England and France at home whilst travelling to a Wales team that will almost certainly in transition, and a Scots and Italian side that will probably be poor enough again.

        After that? The RWC and we all know what Ustix and PP are gunning for there.

        Comment


          Very good post rhh. Agree with all of that.
          But slipping in "Henderson made serious impact in every match"?
          he didn't, his first act when he came on in Paris was completely losing his footing in a scrum.
          To my mind he isn't aggressive enough. Hopefully that will change with age and experience but to say he made serious impact is wildly off the mark IMO.

          Comment


            Q - who do we have in the November Internationals this year?

            Comment


              Georgia, Boks and Aussies
              "There are a lot of points that we’ve left behind and this is with a young group. That probably tells you what they’re capable of and that they’re a very good side.

              Probably next year or the year after next they will take some stopping"

              Anthony Foley, May 2016. Axel RIP

              Comment


                What now? Ireland 2015.

                Originally posted by Red Hand Hero View Post
                Two very big statements there. I would make the connection between the two that you are citing the dropping of O'Donnell, an out and out openside, for Murphy and the non-dropping of Daverage for his defensive howler against England as a baffling inconsistency with Schmidt's approach?

                I would take your point that Dave's double up on Brown was quite an elementary error, that and getting caught by a lock, were two moments in the Championship I am sure he would rather forget. If you look at the macro rather than the micro, or simply the English game versus French game, you could make a fairly decent argument that the mistakes cancelled each other out. No doubt Dave was wrong against England but his contribution to rush Pape was of equal significance in the Championship standings. If he had nailed Care but slightly missed the rush on Pape would we be having this argument? Perhaps, perhaps not. My personal take would be the shoot on Pape was as impressive as the double up on Brown was careless so he's back to evens.

                When I say that the selections ultimately vindicate Schmidt's selections, for HenryFitz's attention, it doesn't mean that if we lost he was biased it means that if we lost his selections would have come under more scrutiny as is generally the case in any team sport. There could have been speculation if Zebo had been picked he might have gassed Launchesbury in the final few minutes at Twickers or that had we lost in France that bringing on O'Donnell and Ryan for say Henry and Toner might have won the day out but ultimately it is all speculation.

                The facts on the table are that a Schmidt coached and selected Ireland won the 6N Championship. Players he didn't 'know' Best, POC, O'Mahony, Henry, Murray and Trimble played fairly influential roles in this as did a number of those he 'knew'. The obvious contenders such as Healy, Heaslip, BOD and Kearney delivered as expected. Crucially however the maligned Ross, Toner, D'Arcy and Daverage also put in some very good performances.

                Beyond the starters Cronin doesn't look out of his depth at this level any more, McGrath is a pretty decent prospect, Moore did well Debaty aside, Henderson made serious impact in every match, Reddan looked capable, Jackson did well when called upon, Madigan held his nerve in Paris and McFadden did what was required of him at 12, 13 and 14.

                Now I am sure you could argue we missed an opportunity to give Kilcyone, for example, more exposure but I fully expect that is what Argentina will be used for that. It is in nobody's best interest to have a very narrow pool of players many of whom are inexperienced but in terms of injury, and DK's previous selections, we are not in a position where we are likely to have to call in complete green-horns like Marshall/Jackson were last season with 0 test experience.

                I would be very surprised if there was any player selected in the Irish RWC squad that had 0 test caps with perhaps the exception of Hanrahan. In every other position we are in a position of, at least, acceptable strenght in depth.

                As I have opined elsewhere would you have believed, 12 months ago, that we would genuinely be debating where we were going to slot a fit O'Brien and Ferris into an Irish backrow such was the levels of Henry and O'Mahony?

                There is no guarantee to success but I personally think we are in a pretty good place. We have a great opportunity to introduce more players into the squad environment down in Argentina including previous certs in the form of Earls, Bowe, Ryan and Ferris who have seen limited game time this season. We have an AI series to further build towards another tilt at a 6N title where we have |England and France at home whilst travelling to a Wales team that will almost certainly in transition, and a Scots and Italian side that will probably be poor enough again.

                After that? The RWC and we all know what Ustix and PP are gunning for there.
                I'd agree with most of that RHH. I don't think there are any baffling inconsistencies in Schmidt's approach. They only become baffling inconsistencies if we insist on accepting this theory that his selection policy is based on favouring the flawless execution of the basics over flair, because that notion doesn't map onto the actual selections.

                Jackson did nothing to get dropped in favour of Madigan. TOD did nothing to get dropped in favour of Murphy. It's a disservice to those players to insist that they were the victims of Schmidt's exacting demands and didn't come up to his mark, which is the notion being pushed by those seeking to create an over-elaborate rationale for some of those calls.

                On Kearney, we'll have to disagree. He was at fault for the Italy try (though not as much as his brother), he was hugely at fault for the Care try, he was at fault for the French try from the aerial tap back and he did nothing, zip, nada in attack in five matches. You only have to compare him with Trimble on the other wing to get a clear picture of where he was. The notion that we're applauding a test player for coming up in a defensive line shows how far we have to go to applaud him.

                The only cohesive rationale for the consistent use of Leinster's second string on the bench in a series of 50/50 calls, the retention of the weakest winger we've fielded in the pro era and the dropping of subs who've done what was asked of them is that, for understandable reasons, Schmidt went with players he knows and who know him.

                That's not inconsistent or baffling. And I don't think it's flawed - he was vindicated by the result.


                What I can't let stand unchallenged is the notion that there's some quality bar in place that Zebo, O'Donnell, Jackson fell short of but that Kearney sailed over despite errors that anyone with eyes could see.

                It's just not true, as far as I can see.
                "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                Comment


                  What are people's opinions on our situation at tight - head? After the Italy match there were a few people complaining about Mike Ross. We saw on Saturday last how vital he is even with the new laws on engagement. Those last three scrums were worrying the way Debaty pummled Moore. I would be of the opinion that Fitzpatrick and Archer are on a par with Moore in terms of scrummaging. The problem is all three are second choice at their clubs. Surely we can't go into the 2015 RWC with the three pretenders with so little test experience...
                  He's a guy who gets up at six o'clock in the morning regardless of what time it is.

                  Comment


                    Well they could leave Ross at home for the summer tour and Autumn Internationals but they are all big games...
                    My computer thinks I'm gay
                    What's the difference anyway
                    When all the people do all day
                    Is stare into a phone

                    Comment


                      Things have been or will soon be changing for both Fitzpatrick and Archer though. In the case of the former, John Afoa leaves Ulster at the end of the season. Haven't heard whether Ulster will be recruiting to replace him but if not, Fitzpatrick should become the new starting TH by default, so long as he can stay fit. As for Archer, he has been rotated with Botha very regularly through this season - in fact at this stage he has had 11 starts to Botha's 8 (including HEC starts against Perpignan and Edinburghx2), while both have come off the bench 8 times. Right now I'd say that Botha is still the senior player alright, but Archer is certainly up there and should definitely be in contention for the green shirt.
                      Tis but a scratch.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post
                        He was at fault for the Italy try (though not as much as his brother), he was hugely at fault for the Care try, he was at fault for the French try from the aerial tap back
                        I've been compelled to defend Kearney far more than I'd like to on this forum, but to be frank the things he's being held responsible for have been bat**** at times, and this is the worst of the lot. Fair enough, he slipped against Italy, but it was a 2/3-on-1 four yards from the tryline. The only way Italy weren't scoring a try there was if they monumentally ****ed up. The France one is even more bizarre. He ran halfway across the pitch to tackle a full back who is, by definition, unmarked. It was a world class try executed perfectly - just give France their due. I'm actually stunned that a player is being derided for having the cheek to not exercise superhuman ability. There are plenty of legitimate criticisms of DK to be made - I just don't understand why people need to create insane **** to do it.

                        Originally posted by redherring View Post
                        What are people's opinions on our situation at tight - head? After the Italy match there were a few people complaining about Mike Ross. We saw on Saturday last how vital he is even with the new laws on engagement. Those last three scrums were worrying the way Debaty pummled Moore.
                        Debaty was boring in so far from the side that he wasn't even engaged with his second row. With more experience Moore would probably have figured him out, but that doesn't take away from the fact it was grossly illegal and any decent scrum ref would have put a stop to it.

                        Comment


                          Can you defend a few more Bleens too whimpersnap? It's very helpful
                          "There are a lot of points that we’ve left behind and this is with a young group. That probably tells you what they’re capable of and that they’re a very good side.

                          Probably next year or the year after next they will take some stopping"

                          Anthony Foley, May 2016. Axel RIP

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Waterfordlad View Post
                            Can you defend a few more Bleens too whimpersnap? It's very helpful
                            No. You can if you want though.

                            Comment


                              Ok so
                              "There are a lot of points that we’ve left behind and this is with a young group. That probably tells you what they’re capable of and that they’re a very good side.

                              Probably next year or the year after next they will take some stopping"

                              Anthony Foley, May 2016. Axel RIP

                              Comment


                                Hain't nothin like the Bleen thing babaaay, ain't nothing like a Bleen thing, woah no
                                I am the million man.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X