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    'A Coach's results can only be as good as the players available to him.

    'A Coach's results can only be as good as the players available to him...'

    discuss if you dare....


    p.s. procure grenade, pull pin, chuck it where you can watch it safely, wait and ........
    ____________________________________________
    Munster were great when they were Munster.

    alas they are just north munster now.......
    ____________________________________________

    #2
    Not much to discuss it's a fairly accurate statement imo.

    I think I remember Joe Schmidt saying it's about getting the performance right,if a team performs to their best they'll get the results they deserve and you can't fault either the players or coaches for those results.

    Comment


      #3
      Indeed - If you've a squad of amazingly talented players then your game plan options are vastly wider as a coach. If you've got average players then you've got to have a simpler game plan but have a bigger emphasis on team work to get results.

      If you compare England versus Ireland, I'd say we've got better players in most of our starting 15 talent wise. Lancaster however has cut his cloth according to his measure though and come up with systems and game plans that work really well for england as a team, and it's paying dividends.

      Another good example is ospreys now versus ospreys 3 seasons ago. On paper Scott Johnson had far better players 3 years ago than Sean Holley has today, but he never got the heights that were reachable given the talent he had.
      The system is dead! Long live the process!

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Daithi View Post
        'A Coach's results can only be as good as the players available to him...'

        discuss if you dare....


        p.s. procure grenade, pull pin, chuck it where you can watch it safely, wait and ........
        I give you France....
        The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man - George Bernard Shaw


        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Daithi View Post
          'A Coach's results can only be as good as the players available to him...'

          discuss if you dare....


          p.s. procure grenade, pull pin, chuck it where you can watch it safely, wait and ........
          Hmm. Ultimately this is of course true. The maximum performance level of a group of players is the highest attainment a coach can hope for. Particularly an international coach, who has limited scope for improving skills, conditioning and all the rest.

          But we can see that not all coaches can get the same performance out of the same group of players. So yes, the very top end of a teams performance is fundamentally limited to the ability of it's players. But most teams performances fluctuate at levels below that, and so how "good" a coach is at any point in time is likely to be driven by factors other than that maximum performance.
          "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

          "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


          "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

          Comment


            #6
            So if most reasonable observers agree on the subject line of this thread, A-Coach-s-results-can-only-be-as-good-as-the-players-available-to-him, it then follows a coaching ticket who only have players of mediocre international quality available to them in several positions can really only attain mediocre results at best
            e.g Mcfadden, jackson, mccarthy, ross, rog (2013)& other Irish players are very average intl players and would be only hec level players in France, England, Wales (not to mention Aus, Sa, Nz, even Arg -.none of them would touch them with a barge pole, maybe not even at club level)

            why are some here being so hard on Kidney & Co? after all it's near impossible to make a silk purse from a bunch of sows ears isn't it!?
            Last edited by Daithi; 9th-March-2013, 09:20.
            ____________________________________________
            Munster were great when they were Munster.

            alas they are just north munster now.......
            ____________________________________________

            Comment


              #7
              Disagree. There are factors/variables that come into the equation other than the absolute ability level of the players - game plan vis a vis the opposition, tactical substitutions, player motivation and dare I say it, luck.
              'I am thankful for laughter, except when milk comes out of my nose' - Woody Allen

              Comment


                #8
                Is this another way of saying that it doesn't matter who the coach is?

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by joconnell View Post
                  Indeed - If you've a squad of amazingly talented players then your game plan options are vastly wider as a coach. If you've got average players then you've got to have a simpler game plan but have a bigger emphasis on team work to get results.

                  If you compare England versus Ireland, I'd say we've got better players in most of our starting 15 talent wise. Lancaster however has cut his cloth according to his measure though and come up with systems and game plans that work really well for england as a team, and it's paying dividends.

                  Another good example is ospreys now versus ospreys 3 seasons ago. On paper Scott Johnson had far better players 3 years ago than Sean Holley has today, but he never got the heights that were reachable given the talent he had.
                  I'm not sure I agree on that. I think half our problem is thinking our players are better then they are.

                  If they were better they'd have done it at the highest level more often.

                  It depends on what your standards are.

                  In Ireland beating Italy and Scotland is a day of National Celebration despite us also bigging ourselves up as a Top 4 Contender.

                  If England beat Italy well tomorrow it will be just a ripple because they expect to beat them well.

                  I think the coaching staff haven't done a very good job in the last 12 months but in their defence to some degree they are working with too many players who have glaring deficiencies in their game that aren't highlighted when playing in the Rabo.

                  The 6 Nations in terms of rugby on the world stage is a very average competition. You have two poor sides in it. Two average sides in it and two decent teams in it. When you look at it like that our record is very poor.
                  I always knew Madigan was a closet Scrum Half. Ignore All things that suggest Continuity.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by bugler View Post
                    Is this another way of saying that it doesn't matter who the coach is?
                    Well as was pointed out above . . . . .Phillippe Saint -André has blown that train of thought out of the water this year.
                    Last edited by Corcíoch; 9th-March-2013, 10:44.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Daithi View Post
                      'A Coach's results can only be as good as the players available to him...'

                      discuss if you dare....


                      p.s. procure grenade, pull pin, chuck it where you can watch it safely, wait and ........

                      valid opinion, but Ireland have not been reaching their playing potential. Kidney had been outcoached by both Gatland and Lancaster. Time to move on.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        or only as good as his players ability to put into action the gameplan decided on! I've coached for about 4 years now and I've got a professional qualification. I coach U17s that play against the likes of Stade français, Clermont, and Lyon. It never ceases to amaze me (perhaps I haven't studied enough psychology) how players 'refuse' to follow even the simplest instructions at times!

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I read the first post Daithi and it read very much like excuse making for Declan Kidney even though you didn't mention him; Your subsequent post confirmed that assumption. Nothing wrong with that at all but others (including myself) won't agree that the performances of Kidney's Ireland have been the result of 'the players available to him...'

                          Go back to 2009 and Kidney certainly got the best out of the players available to him and won a GS, something we were told by the EO'S defenders was beyond the capabilities of the players at the time. Kidney proved that was Bùllsh*te. Kidney knew how to get the best of a Munster dominated Ireland team (having previously extracted it from them in red) at the time of his sucession something that was beyond EO's despite the protestations of his friends in the press. Now though Kidney is dealing with a differn't group of players (the balance of power has switched to Leinster in recent years) and struggling with them.

                          I don't believe for a second that Kidney is getting the optimum performance out of the current group of players just like EO'S was not getting the best out of the players Kidney inherited (and which Kidney himself proved by the subsequent slam). Every team at 6n's level at least has a mixture of good, average & poor INTL level players (ratio varies between France at one end and Ital at the other - interestingly though Italy have beaten them 2/3 last matches). Ireland are no differn't. This season injuries have weakened Kidney's hand and so I'm not going to overly critical of him. It's time for a new coaching ticket though and I've no doubt the right man (i.e Joe Schmidt) will see a similar lift in performance as we saw under Kidney when he first took over. I would wager a small bet that a championship or even a slam would follow close behind if Schmidt takes over not because we've superb players but because the standard of the 6n's is very average and as Wales have proved last season and England this, a good coach with an average group of players is enough to bring home the bacon in this competition .
                          Last edited by Mcork; 9th-March-2013, 11:42.
                          Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again (like picking Gordon D'Arcy) and expecting different results.
                          Albert Einstein

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Daithi View Post
                            So if most reasonable observers agree on the subject line of this thread, A-Coach-s-results-can-only-be-as-good-as-the-players-available-to-him, it then follows a coaching ticket who only have players of mediocre international quality available to them in several positions can really only attain mediocre results at best
                            e.g Mcfadden, jackson, mccarthy, ross, rog (2013)& other Irish players are very average intl players and would be only hec level players in France, England, Wales (not to mention Aus, Sa, Nz, even Arg -.none of them would touch them with a barge pole, maybe not even at club level)

                            why are some here being so hard on Kidney & Co? after all it's near impossible to make a silk purse from a bunch of sows ears isn't it!?
                            I'm being hard on him because I don't expect a silk purse,I expect him to prepare a team so they can produce the best performance possible from the players he has available.I don't see how anyone can claim he has managed that more than 2 or 3 times post 2009.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Mcork View Post
                              I read the first post Daithi and it read very much like excuse making for Declan Kidney even though you didn't mention him; Your subsequent post confirmed that assumption. Nothing wrong with that at all but others (including myself) won't agree that the performances of Kidney's Ireland have been the result of 'the players available to him...'

                              Go back to 2009 and Kidney certainly got the best out of the players available to him and won a GS, something we were told by the EO'S defenders was beyond the capabilities of the players at the time. Kidney proved that was Bùllsh*te. Kidney knew how to get the best of a Munster dominated Ireland team (having previously extracted it from them in red) at the time of his sucession something that was beyond EO's despite the protestations of his friends in the press. Now though Kidney is dealing with a differn't group of players (the balance of power has switched to Leinster in recent years) and struggling with them.

                              I don't believe for a second that Kidney is getting the optimum performance out of the current group of players just like EO'S was not getting the best out of the players Kidney inherited (and which Kidney himself proved by the subsequent slam). Every team at 6n's level at least has a mixture of good, average & poor INTL level players (ratio varies between France at one end and Ital at the other - interestingly though Italy have beaten them 2/3 last matches). Ireland are no differn't. This season injuries have weakened Kidney's hand and so I'm not going to overly critical of him. It's time for a new coaching ticket though and I've no doubt the right man (i.e Joe Schmidt) will see a similar lift in performance as we saw under Kidney when he first took over. I would wager a small bet that a championship or even a slam would follow close behind if Schmidt takes over not because we've superb players but because the standard of the 6n's is very average and as Wales have proved last season and England this, a good coach with an average group of players is enough to bring home the bacon in this competition .
                              That's a great post MCork, with many astute observations and comments.

                              I agree a coaching tickets job (& responsibility) is to try to extract the max from the players available to them through optimum preparation, selection (s), gameplans, tactics & substitutions. Not to mention other contributing aspects of the job such as internal & external communications, Morale building and getting access to the, players and allocation of resources (e.g. coaches, time, facilities,etc,etc).

                              The theme of this thread is not to defend Kidney & Co per se, it's probably too late for that tbh, and anyway he's made some obvious looking gambles this season that have not paid off (yet - who'll be still moaning if Ireland win a gs or reach a wc semi with heaslip as captain &/or Jackson @ 10, they had to learn to step up some time), the purpose of the original post is rather to question 'what is the max potential of the players available to Kidney & co this season???'

                              Imho, max 3/5 matches from a 6 Ns with no potential of beating any top Sh side (bar Arg). Now when viewed in this light maybe, just maybe mind, Kidney won't be judged too harshly even this season. Would Joe Schmidt have done any better?!
                              ____________________________________________
                              Munster were great when they were Munster.

                              alas they are just north munster now.......
                              ____________________________________________

                              Comment

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