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6N R3) England in Twickenham - Sunday Feb 23rd @ 15.00

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    Originally posted by kahalui View Post

    Don't worry cb. If Ireland lose this weekend (which is likely), Murray and POM will be back in firing range.
    Its just sad really, I've zero against Cooney and wouldn't be aggravated if he started ahead of Murr whatsoever, but the week prior to Scotland there was roaring and screaming and stamping of feet.

    Now Cooney is the forgotten man again, and he hasn't put a foot wrong when on the field either.

    Just a bit imbalanced treatment of him and Murr tbh.

    I am the million man.

    Comment


      Originally posted by Cowboy View Post
      I agree completely with all of this.

      Superb coach demanded superb levels, the relentlessness wore all parties out.

      In years to come when we are ****e again he will be remembered fondly
      I also object to lumping Deccie in with Eddie. Deccie delivered what Eddie couldn’t - a first GS in donkeys years - and a half decent RWC too, albeit we still didn’t make the QF.

      Comment


        Originally posted by Cowboy View Post
        I agree completely with all of this.

        Superb coach demanded superb levels, the relentlessness wore all parties out.

        In years to come when we are ****e again he will be remembered fondly
        You think Joe won Grand Slams as well.

        ​​​​​​#GiveLeinsterTheHCupNow

        Originally Posted by mr chips
        AG gets the responses he does because he is a journalist..

        Comment


          Originally posted by Upfront_1979 View Post

          Jaysus the revisionism is starting. Joe finished up poorly but he delivered Grand Slams, Multiple wins against NZ and series wins in the SH. It got stale but his record stands up to scrutiny as Ireland's most successful coach in the professional era never mind his successes with Leinster. He may not have been a genius but from comments from ROG and others who worked with him he is a very deep thinker on the game and top class coach. I think he was with Ireland too long and things got stale, probably needed a really strong opposing voice in the setup or should have left earlier.
          Revisionism is one thing gross exaggeration another...

          We have brilliant players - England beat NZ many times we should have done so too - except for an inferiority complex - which to be fair to Joesph he seemed to helped budge. But the end of his reign was also an important part of his reign and the World Cup and last years games againast Wales and England were simply shocking(if not worse).

          Praise when it goes well - and kick up the arshe when it doesn't.
          Last edited by AdolphusGrigson; 19-February-2020, 16:46.
          ​​​​​​#GiveLeinsterTheHCupNow

          Originally Posted by mr chips
          AG gets the responses he does because he is a journalist..

          Comment


            Originally posted by AdolphusGrigson View Post

            You think Joe won Grand Slams as well.
            Click image for larger version

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            I am the million man.

            Comment


              Originally posted by Cowboy View Post

              Click image for larger version  Name:	image.jpg Views:	0 Size:	52.5 KB ID:	2594328
              pictures of the other one(s) to follow?
              ​​​​​​#GiveLeinsterTheHCupNow

              Originally Posted by mr chips
              AG gets the responses he does because he is a journalist..

              Comment


                Originally posted by AdolphusGrigson View Post

                pictures of the other one(s) to follow?
                Arguing over grammar, the greatest of all moral victories.

                I am the million man.

                Comment


                  Joe was a great coach but I think he shat the course in his last 18 months as the pressure of the world cup came on and our style became more and more risk-averse and one dimensional. That coupled with the fact he ruled through fear, our decline started right around the time he announced he would be stepping down. It doesn't sound like the players particularly liked him when you hear the likes of Earls referring to the amount of anxiety he caused.
                  When things go wrong, blame McGahan

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Cowboy View Post

                    Arguing over grammar, the greatest of all moral victories.
                    Joe won only 1 grand slam - lets just tell it as it is.
                    ​​​​​​#GiveLeinsterTheHCupNow

                    Originally Posted by mr chips
                    AG gets the responses he does because he is a journalist..

                    Comment


                      Not too many coaches don't have a stretch where things go "stale", their system gets found out, etc. I think Schmidt's main problem was his stubborn attitude towards a) his undroppables, and b) the style of play not needing to be changed one bit. Those were the two things that hurt them the most in 2019. A bull headed approach to two glaring issues. Then again, this is a guy who blamed the buses being late for coming out and playing flat as a board at Murrayfield. I know that these guys have routines and such, but come on. They arrived a little late. That shouldn't have caused them to play poorly.

                      Once that England game happened in the 6N, the alarm bells should have gone off that Ireland weren't going to be able to rumble over the gain line at will, and the beating Wales hung on them confirmed it. IMO, that was worse than the England game. The England match was still in the balance until Slade scored, with over 60 minutes on the clock. Against Wales, they were never really in it to be honest.

                      Comment


                        Look JS was a great coach, his track record with Ireland (& Leinster) previously was really excellent. He left both teams in overall better health than when he took over. (Okay Ireland 2019 were sh1te, but overall better)

                        All of that does not (& never did) put him above criticism. Even when his teams were winning leading into tournaments, I was often very critical of some of his pet selections & lack of rotation specifically.

                        After 2018 particularly, his selection became very set in stone and his tactics became far more risk averse, (one out runners, zero offloads, repeated rucks = dull) and both of these factors affected his teams performances & results imho. Similarly, his repeated selection of played out favourites impacted Ireland's results also e.g. rob Kearney at RWC19, and Dave Kearney at RWC15 were prime examples of this, but there were many more.

                        However, the repeated mistake that got my blood boiling most was the lack of rotation at world cups, & 6Ns, when similar (or sometimes better) but fresher, players were available in the squad e.g. Scannell for Best, Conway for Kearney and Killer for Healy at RWC19 for instance. Not rotating your squad when it's possible, say versus a weaker opposition, or on a 6 day turnaround, is such a lose lose strategy imho, and it really cost Ireland at both RWCs that JS was coach, as it had when EOS was coach also.

                        For instance, regardless of what happens v England this weekend, all of the marginal call players should start v Italy imho e.g. Cooney, Dorris, Killer, etc, etc

                        Why? Because
                        1.You get the squad player starting a game, learning systems, under match pressure etc, etc,
                        2. You rest your preferred starter, so they're fresher for the next match, and
                        3. You heighten competition for places among your squad.

                        These are all good things for a squad. JS did not employ this kind of strategy often enough when he could have, and it cost him and his Irish teams dear imho. Pity, cos he was a great coach nonetheless, but could have achieved even more imho, which is frustrating....
                        Last edited by Daithi; 19-February-2020, 19:22.
                        ____________________________________________
                        Munster were great when they were Munster.

                        alas they are just north munster now.......
                        ____________________________________________

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Daithi View Post
                          Look JS was a great coach, his track record with Ireland (& Leinster) previously was really excellent. He left both teams in overall better health than when he took over. (Okay Ireland 2019 were sh1te, but overall better)

                          All of that does not (& never did) put him above criticism. Even when his teams were winning leading into tournaments, I was often very critical of some of his pet selections & lack of rotation specifically.

                          After 2018 particularly, his selection became very set in stone and his tactics became far more risk averse, (one out runners, zero offloads, repeated rucks = dull) and both of these factors affected his teams performances & results imho. Similarly, his repeated selection of played out favourites impacted Ireland's results also e.g. rob Kearney at RWC19, and Dave Kearney at RWC15 were prime examples of this, but there were many more.

                          However, the repeated mistake that got my blood boiling most was the lack of rotation at world cups, & 6Ns, when similar (or sometimes better) but fresher, players were available in the squad e.g. Scannell for Best, Conway for Kearney and Killer for Healy at RWC19 for instance. Not rotating your squad when it's possible, say versus a weaker opposition, or on a 6 day turnaround, is such a lose lose strategy imho, and it really cost Ireland at both RWCs that JS was coach, as it had when EOS was coach also.

                          For instance, regardless of what happens v England this weekend, all of the marginal call players should start v Italy imho e.g. Cooney, Dorris, Killer, etc, etc

                          Why? Because
                          1.You get the squad player starting a game, learning systems, under match pressure etc, etc,
                          2. You rest your preferred starter, so they're fresher for the next match, and
                          3. You heighten competition for places among your squad.

                          These are all good things for a squad. JS did not employ this kind of strategy often enough when he could have, and it cost him and his Irish teams dear imho. Pity, cos he was a great coach nonetheless, but could have achieved even more imho, which is frustrating....
                          Playing Stander against Samoa was ridiculous IMO. He'd already logged a ton of minutes. Ruddock could have started that match at 8. If Ruddock was hurt, they should have flown someone else out after Murphy did his rib. They won by 40, playing a guy a bit out of position wasn't going to make a difference. They could have called any IQ 8 in and it would have made zero difference. You can have one guy who doesn't really know the game plan for a team you're going to thump.

                          Comment


                            I'm not sure why this thread has turned into a debate on Joe Schmidt! Joe was the fourth in a sequence of coaches who all improved and brought increasing levels of success since our nadir in the 1990s - Warren Gatland, Eddie O'Sullivan, Deccie and Joe.

                            All these careers with Ireland ended on a diminishing note, which is fairly typical for sports coaches (with one or two rare exceptions).

                            Joe brought unprecedented success to Ireland and I'm sure that will is how he will be remembered. In my opinion he was our best ever, by a distance.

                            Meanwhile, I'm looking forward to the match on Sunday.
                            "I don't believe in fairytales," O'Connell once told me, "even though it feels like I've been lucky enough to live through a few. However it ends, I'll feel lucky."
                            Donald McRae, Guardian Rugby, October 2015

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Munsterboy View Post

                              Is Killer ahead of Healy ok with you so? Or does the argument only work in favour of Leinster starlets?
                              I think Killer offers far more off the bench as a ball carrier for the last 30 mins so I would leave Healy starting. I don't think Toner is a bench player so would have Dillane instead on the bench. I would have Cooney at 9 and Doris at 8. So I've no problem in leaving Leinster players out

                              Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by blackwarrior View Post
                                I'm not sure why this thread has turned into a debate on Joe Schmidt! Joe was the fourth in a sequence of coaches who all improved and brought increasing levels of success since our nadir in the 1990s - Warren Gatland, Eddie O'Sullivan, Deccie and Joe.

                                All these careers with Ireland ended on a diminishing note, which is fairly typical for sports coaches (with one or two rare exceptions).

                                Joe brought unprecedented success to Ireland and I'm sure that will is how he will be remembered. In my opinion he was our best ever, by a distance.

                                Meanwhile, I'm looking forward to the match on Sunday.
                                Aside from the pointless coaches debate on this thread now I think what I've learned is that a sustained level of performance (winning if you like) at test rugby has become almost non existent. Apart from NZ (circa 2010 - 2016) at least one of Ireland, Wales, England, SA and Aus have had a 12 month period where they were in the top 1 or 2 in the world but fell off considerably beyond the 12-18 months. Injuries are a huge factor in this but I think the levels of physicality, mental toughness and game management etc. are so high that it's become almost impossible to sustain. Sunday's fixture is case in point for me. 24 months ago Ireland hockeyed England en route to the GS and 12 months ago was the reverse. Let's see how Sunday pans out.
                                He's a guy who gets up at six o'clock in the morning regardless of what time it is.

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