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  • TokyoCrusaders92
    replied
    Originally posted by LongtimeLurker View Post

    Part of the attraction for rugby in Ireland was the tribalism and the sense of playing and representing where you came from. For me the sense of identity is key. Professionalism has had its impact on that. I agree that fans likely to vote with their feet if you hit a situation where you get a Leinster majority somewhere else. The London Irish one could work, but it would have to be the IRFU who should look to take over London Irish and route any surplus there. Imagine it it was overt then the RFU might have a view on it too. In the early dates of professionalism they had a lot of Irish internationals.

    In terms of the raw talent I think the comparison with other sports is interesting, Dublin GAA mirrors Leinster in ways , large playing population and advanced coaching & are getting the results. Most of their 5 in a row team were already earmarked for big things when Gavin had them as under 21s. There are sporting organisations in Munster identifying kids and developing them to be as good as their counterparts anywhere else in the country; in GAA Cork and Kerry have 12 and 10 U21 Football titles respectively, (Dublin have 5) so the quality of athlete is there and over time has been shown - when developed correctly – to beat all comers. Could be time to look and learn from other sports or possibly even cooperate with them

    My understanding is that the gap in rugby seems to open up between Leinster and the rest during the senior cycle in schools, JCT teams tend to be in and around the same level. It should be something that is possible to address

    Happy Christmas to all
    It's a few years since I coached up here but in general the u15 regional club squads would be competitive/better than a JCT team but 3 years later there is no comparison. SCT cycle is like an academy and probably has to be replicated to compete.

    Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

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  • jagawayagain
    replied
    Originally posted by Waterfordlad View Post
    Under Gaelic rule the areas of Ireland were known as 'cúige', which in Irish means 'portion' or 'fifth', indicating the original division of the five areas:


    Mide * Ulster * Munster * Leinster * Connacht


    The 'cúige' were subsequently referred to as provinces. After the Normans took control of Ireland in the 12th century, Mide gradually became County Meath and County Westmeath and eventually merged into the province of Leinster, primarily due to the development and importance of 'The Pale'; an area of c.1,500 km square around Dublin being the centre of Anglo-Norman commercial activity and tight rule. [The rest of Ireland was referred to as “beyond the pale“!] Thus leaving Ireland with the four provinces we know today.


    Mide, the former fifth province of Ireland, meaning 'middle' in Irish, named for being bordered by the other four provinces. At that time Ireland was ruled by many local Chieftains, the High King was the Overlord of all these, and took his seat at the Hill of Tara. After the Normans took control of Ireland in the twelfth century they replaced the divided system with counties and over time Mide became Counties Meath and Westmeath, which were absorbed into the province of Leinster. County Meath is still referred to as the ‘Royal Country
    Lovely post- fascinating what guys in here know!!


    (an exiles team in London might be a better way of strengthening the national team, though, and might be a natural draw for first GB-based first generation lads). Would be hilarious for IRFU to have a seat at the premiership table)!

    Leave a comment:


  • LongtimeLurker
    replied
    Originally posted by ustix View Post

    So would you go with London as a fifth province or let them at it in exile while developing a ffth province say in Athlone?
    Part of the attraction for rugby in Ireland was the tribalism and the sense of playing and representing where you came from. For me the sense of identity is key. Professionalism has had its impact on that. I agree that fans likely to vote with their feet if you hit a situation where you get a Leinster majority somewhere else. The London Irish one could work, but it would have to be the IRFU who should look to take over London Irish and route any surplus there. Imagine it it was overt then the RFU might have a view on it too. In the early dates of professionalism they had a lot of Irish internationals.

    In terms of the raw talent I think the comparison with other sports is interesting, Dublin GAA mirrors Leinster in ways , large playing population and advanced coaching & are getting the results. Most of their 5 in a row team were already earmarked for big things when Gavin had them as under 21s. There are sporting organisations in Munster identifying kids and developing them to be as good as their counterparts anywhere else in the country; in GAA Cork and Kerry have 12 and 10 U21 Football titles respectively, (Dublin have 5) so the quality of athlete is there and over time has been shown - when developed correctly – to beat all comers. Could be time to look and learn from other sports or possibly even cooperate with them

    My understanding is that the gap in rugby seems to open up between Leinster and the rest during the senior cycle in schools, JCT teams tend to be in and around the same level. It should be something that is possible to address

    Happy Christmas to all

    Leave a comment:


  • Waterfordlad
    replied
    Under Gaelic rule the areas of Ireland were known as 'cúige', which in Irish means 'portion' or 'fifth', indicating the original division of the five areas:


    Mide * Ulster * Munster * Leinster * Connacht


    The 'cúige' were subsequently referred to as provinces. After the Normans took control of Ireland in the 12th century, Mide gradually became County Meath and County Westmeath and eventually merged into the province of Leinster, primarily due to the development and importance of 'The Pale'; an area of c.1,500 km square around Dublin being the centre of Anglo-Norman commercial activity and tight rule. [The rest of Ireland was referred to as “beyond the pale“!] Thus leaving Ireland with the four provinces we know today.


    Mide, the former fifth province of Ireland, meaning 'middle' in Irish, named for being bordered by the other four provinces. At that time Ireland was ruled by many local Chieftains, the High King was the Overlord of all these, and took his seat at the Hill of Tara. After the Normans took control of Ireland in the twelfth century they replaced the divided system with counties and over time Mide became Counties Meath and Westmeath, which were absorbed into the province of Leinster. County Meath is still referred to as the ‘Royal Country

    Leave a comment:


  • ustix
    replied
    Originally posted by Finnegan79 View Post

    The thing is that right now, leinster are producing these kids one after the next in a seemingly never ending supply of talented rugby players who can make it at least at the pro14 and HC level.. The next ones coming out of the academy can't get game time b/c the guy who is ahead of him isn't all that much older and coaches aren't going to constantly chop and change. Ross Byrne is 24, Frawley is 22, and we're already hearing about Harry Byrne, and that's just in one position. Barring injuries, we may not have seen the Doris, Deegan and Connors get the game time they've gotten; they'd be stuck behind other young guys or guys in their primes like Conan and JVDF. They have too many players for too few spots. Even at Munster, Carbery is 24, yet people are banging on about Healy as "the future." The present hasn't gone anywhere yet. (assuming he can return to fitness) Before the money became worth moving for, the 4th choice guys would probably hang the boots up at 25, 26, even though he could have made the switch and gotten game time. These days the money is too good to pass up so guys are going to move if they get the chance.

    Transforming the schools to produce rugby players the way Leinster's do will take serious time. Neil Francis talks a lot of absolute rubbish, but he mentioned the marked difference between how it was in schools rugby when he plays versus the system his nephew is in. to paraphrase him, "they're practically professionals" in the way they train, the way they are looked after, how to properly eat, how much to sleep, etc etc., all so that these kids can be turned into rugby players ready to try and turn pro. Looking at the results, i tend to believe him. If the Munster schools move towards that, yeah, it would be good, but that would take a long time to implement. Once they did, the question then is, what about the players Leinster are pumping out ? The IRFU doesn't want to lose them, even if they're not front line starters at 20-23.

    The reality is that the numbers of talented players is going to continue to expand while the squad sizes of the 4 provinces will probably stay the same. The bottom line is that the IRFU is either going to need a 5th team in order to hang onto players or they're going to have to move players along sooner than they currently do. It will either lose them when they're young or lose them when they're 29-30 b/c there is too much talent coming behind them and not enough spots to keep everyone playing high level rugby.
    So would you go with London as a fifth province or let them at it in exile while developing a ffth province say in Athlone?

    Leave a comment:


  • Finnegan79
    replied
    Originally posted by LongtimeLurker View Post

    Personally think there has been enough redistribution already, for me we‘re already at the point where provincial identify is at risk unless you’re playing for Leinster. When the first choice Munster pack is 50% from outside the province you’re staring an identity issue in the face, denying it is delusional in my opinion.
    There are lots of talented kids, Leinster and their underage structures, schools & clubs are doing a much better job identifying them early and hot housing them. The other provinces need to step up and do the same and reduce the reliance on Leinster cast offs. Schools need to go to places like St Michael's and look at way they are doing things and see what they can copy within their budgets
    No shortage of serious athletes in Kerry football or Tipp hurling, so the raw material is just as good. It’s the way the kids are coached, managed and trained that is the difference. The population aspect will mean Leinster produce more but personally am of the opinion the other provinces should think about a self-imposed limit on the number of Leinster imports.
    Its no good for anyone if Munster become a watered down Leinster A. Players tend to agree to leave Leinster for a reason, its that they know they wont get picked in the big games - and they all want to play in the big games.
    The thing is that right now, leinster are producing these kids one after the next in a seemingly never ending supply of talented rugby players who can make it at least at the pro14 and HC level.. The next ones coming out of the academy can't get game time b/c the guy who is ahead of him isn't all that much older and coaches aren't going to constantly chop and change. Ross Byrne is 24, Frawley is 22, and we're already hearing about Harry Byrne, and that's just in one position. Barring injuries, we may not have seen the Doris, Deegan and Connors get the game time they've gotten; they'd be stuck behind other young guys or guys in their primes like Conan and JVDF. They have too many players for too few spots. Even at Munster, Carbery is 24, yet people are banging on about Healy as "the future." The present hasn't gone anywhere yet. (assuming he can return to fitness) Before the money became worth moving for, the 4th choice guys would probably hang the boots up at 25, 26, even though he could have made the switch and gotten game time. These days the money is too good to pass up so guys are going to move if they get the chance.

    Transforming the schools to produce rugby players the way Leinster's do will take serious time. Neil Francis talks a lot of absolute rubbish, but he mentioned the marked difference between how it was in schools rugby when he plays versus the system his nephew is in. to paraphrase him, "they're practically professionals" in the way they train, the way they are looked after, how to properly eat, how much to sleep, etc etc., all so that these kids can be turned into rugby players ready to try and turn pro. Looking at the results, i tend to believe him. If the Munster schools move towards that, yeah, it would be good, but that would take a long time to implement. Once they did, the question then is, what about the players Leinster are pumping out ? The IRFU doesn't want to lose them, even if they're not front line starters at 20-23.

    The reality is that the numbers of talented players is going to continue to expand while the squad sizes of the 4 provinces will probably stay the same. The bottom line is that the IRFU is either going to need a 5th team in order to hang onto players or they're going to have to move players along sooner than they currently do. It will either lose them when they're young or lose them when they're 29-30 b/c there is too much talent coming behind them and not enough spots to keep everyone playing high level rugby.

    Leave a comment:


  • ormond lad
    replied
    Originally posted by LongtimeLurker View Post

    Personally think there has been enough redistribution already, for me we‘re already at the point where provincial identify is at risk unless you’re playing for Leinster. When the first choice Munster pack is 50% from outside the province you’re staring an identity issue in the face, denying it is delusional in my opinion.
    There are lots of talented kids, Leinster and their underage structures, schools & clubs are doing a much better job identifying them early and hot housing them. The other provinces need to step up and do the same and reduce the reliance on Leinster cast offs. Schools need to go to places like St Michael's and look at way they are doing things and see what they can copy within their budgets
    No shortage of serious athletes in Kerry football or Tipp hurling, so the raw material is just as good. It’s the way the kids are coached, managed and trained that is the difference. The population aspect will mean Leinster produce more but personally am of the opinion the other provinces should think about a self-imposed limit on the number of Leinster imports.
    Its no good for anyone if Munster become a watered down Leinster A. Players tend to agree to leave Leinster for a reason, its that they know they wont get picked in the big games - and they all want to play in the big games.
    We need to use clubs and schools better. We need to be coaching coaches more. We need to look at facilities and have clubs working together more in some areas.
    what limit is high enough in terms of leinster developed players?
    connacht have very much stepped up but playing numbers wise are so much lower than elsewhere they just wont produce many pros.
    what do you suggest happen in order for other provinces to step up?

    Leave a comment:


  • reded
    replied
    Originally posted by LongtimeLurker View Post

    Personally think there has been enough redistribution already, for me we‘re already at the point where provincial identify is at risk unless you’re playing for Leinster. When the first choice Munster pack is 50% from outside the province you’re staring an identity issue in the face, denying it is delusional in my opinion.
    There are lots of talented kids, Leinster and their underage structures, schools & clubs are doing a much better job identifying them early and hot housing them. The other provinces need to step up and do the same and reduce the reliance on Leinster cast offs. Schools need to go to places like St Michael's and look at way they are doing things and see what they can copy within their budgets
    No shortage of serious athletes in Kerry football or Tipp hurling, so the raw material is just as good. It’s the way the kids are coached, managed and trained that is the difference. The population aspect will mean Leinster produce more but personally am of the opinion the other provinces should think about a self-imposed limit on the number of Leinster imports.
    Its no good for anyone if Munster become a watered down Leinster A. Players tend to agree to leave Leinster for a reason, its that they know they wont get picked in the big games - and they all want to play in the big games.
    Yes, agree entirely with this. I can see why the IRFU want to develop players with Ireland in mind but if they want sustainability for the long run they need the supporters of the provinces and the clubs engaged. Trouble is the Nucifora and the coaches get judged on short and at best medium term results. The current strategy of sending the possibles off to make up numbers elsewhere will inevitably lead to reduced participation outside Dublin, initially by players and then by supporters. I think Leinster should annexe London Irish as an outlet for the conveyor belt.

    Leave a comment:


  • jagawayagain
    replied
    Sorry -these posts should presumably be in HC changes
    Last edited by jagawayagain; 19-December-2019, 07:53.

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  • jagawayagain
    replied
    Originally posted by Munsterboy View Post

    As far as I recall it was based on performance in the Heino over the previous few years, with more weight put on more recent years.
    Given that we have qualification based on league position (and that was a good thing rather than guaranteeing places for different national groups in Pro12/14), it’s logical to seed according to league winning/ runners up. After that it makes senses to have some geographical separation, which approximates to the different leagues. Despite a strong historical record in the competition, especially if you consider semis rather than wins, we haven’t won anything (inc league) for ages, even been finalists, so I have no problem with our seeding. Because some leagues, England and France, have a play off across top league positions, you can find yourself up against a side that has done consistently well in that league, or is a good cup performer. I can’t see that changing, but you could seed on league position rather than the playoff element. Personally I feel a league is just that, and the play off thing is merely a marketing opportunity, although I get the argument that it keeps more teams playing for something towards the seasons end.

    The reduction from six to five groups, made very difficult groups more likely, but increased the runner up opportunities to some extent, albeit you end up away in the quarters, and again have the hard yards to make. Other than whether there should be SA representation I don’t think it there’s no need to think about further change, especially in terms of smaller groups. I do t know whether the anticipated deluge of additional sponsorship have occurred, anyone have any data.

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