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2020 Guinness 6 Nations

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    #91
    Originally posted by HenryFitz View Post
    The danger of the Andy Farrell era is that he might be moderately successful this season and next and get his contract extended. Ireland should beat Scotland and Italy and they have a good chance against Wales and France. Farrell has gone for continuity with Schmidt's squad, while Galthie and Pivac are rebuilding. Then next year, wins over Scotland, Italy and France should be achievable. Two seasons with three wins each would probably be enough for him to be kept on, especially if the losses were fairly close.
    Why so down on Farrell?

    He’s brought Kelleher, JOD, Deegan, Doris, Heffernan and O’Toole into the forwards, and Cooney, Burns and Byrne into the backs. That’s quite a few young players. Then there’s the four development lads too.

    He’s also left out a number of Joe’s go-to men (Ruddock, Jordi and of course Rob).

    Maybe see who he picks and how they play before worrying.

    Comment


      #92
      Originally posted by Mumhain View Post

      Maybe not substantially better, but there's a serious argument to be made that Dave Kilcoyne is now a better player than Healy. Has been far more impactful in his carries/tackles over the last 12 months.

      For me, McCloskey is a substantially better player than Henshaw. Henshaw effectively plays the same game as McCloskey, but with less power, offloading ability, kicking ability and game intelligence.

      I think there are also arguments to be made about Stockdale vs Dave Kearney and Toner vs Henderson.
      And I agree with you- especially about McCloskey- but given that the squad has been selected- it’s quite hard, I think, to argue with that approach (although I believe it would be awful for Irish rugby). I also think the side would be walloped by most 6N teams...

      Comment


        #93
        Originally posted by Yatenga View Post

        How is Kelleher? To me this is a big deal. Herring and Heffernan look like guys who are good in the loose but mediocre at the lineout. Scannell not great here either but I think he is slightly more reliable than those 2. And lineout wobbles is why Cronin never became a starter.
        I can only recall one bad throw from Kelleher, where he had an overthrow in one of the opening pro14 games. Maybe I'm being a little harsh on Kelleher's darts as my impression of his line-out throwing is based more so on his games with the Ireland underage teams. He was really good for the Irish under 20's and powerful in the loose, but had some issues with his throwing. That was two years ago though, so I'm sure he has done a lot of work on it.

        Comment


          #94
          Originally posted by jagawayagain View Post

          And I agree with you- especially about McCloskey- but given that the squad has been selected- it’s quite hard, I think, to argue with that approach (although I believe it would be awful for Irish rugby). I also think the side would be walloped by most 6N teams...
          Agree, where possible it's always better to keep provincial units together. Even though Henderson and Killer are arguably better players than Toner and Healy, it would be hard to argue with keeping that Leinster front five together, from a scrummaging and line-out perspective.

          Comment


            #95
            Originally posted by Munsterboy View Post

            You’d swear POM and CJ hadn’t played with VDF plenty of times, like when we beat the ABs in 2018 and they were phenomenal as a unit. There’s no mystery to it.

            A pack of Killer, Kelleher, Furlong, Ryan, Henderson, POM, VdF, CJ gives you a great mix of carrying, breakdown and set piece ability.

            Or put Deegan in at 8, with CJ at 6 and POM at 7, much like the RWC warm up against Wales.
            Jordi Murphy also played 7 when we beat the all blacks :-)

            Comment


              #96
              Originally posted by Finnegan79 View Post

              I don't see it with France this season; they're bringing through a ton of youngsters; 19 out of 42 in the squad are uncapped. Maybe most of those guys are just there to be in the environment and gain valuable experience that way, but I don't think so. They have a lot of good young capped talent, and they're looking to a home WC in 2023 so I have a feeling that this year and next they will be getting all these young guys as much experience as they possibly can, trying different combinations and encouraging competition for places; appearing very unsettled at times, but doing so with an eye to the long term rather than the short.
              Absolutely agree they are building for hosting but I still think with the talent in that squad they will surprise teams this year. I think they have the power to match England up front, they have a serious talent in the front row eg Demba Bamba Chat Baille Salimin etc etc Might be a bit callow in the row because of Vahaamahina’s departure. The form their likely starting backs are carrying into the 6 Nations is impressive. And for once France have a shrewd coach.
              Young captain, young squad, youngish coach – was horrified to realise he is now 50 tempus fugit - if they beat England next weekend they will take some stopping

              Comment


                #97
                Originally posted by Munsterboy View Post

                You’d swear POM and CJ hadn’t played with VDF plenty of times, like when we beat the ABs in 2018 and they were phenomenal as a unit. There’s no mystery to it.

                A pack of Killer, Kelleher, Furlong, Ryan, Henderson, POM, VdF, CJ gives you a great mix of carrying, breakdown and set piece ability.

                Or put Deegan in at 8, with CJ at 6 and POM at 7, much like the RWC warm up against Wales.
                True, they have played together before and played quite well, and that was my point. People are judging POM's and CJ's poor form on matches where they are playing in an unbalanced backrow.

                However I didn't realise we were playing a game of fantasy rugby. Killer has been in great form for the last year in my opinion and could easily be the starting LH however Healy's form has been equally good so I don't see Killer edging him for Scotland. Ryan is out injured so that is not an option and we are likely as not going to have a pretty inexperienced hooker one way or the other so Toner is the logical choice alongside Henderson but Dillane might get a chance.

                I do think though that this will be one of the most interesting selections we have seen in a long time. Back in the day there used to be a selection match of Probables V's Possibles, the Scots used to do it too and one year a team of Possibles including Scott and Gavin Hastings spanked the Probables and this led in turn to the Scots drastically changing their team in one fell swoop. It also led I believe (though I am open to correction) to their last Grand Slam winning squad. I wonder should this be reintroduced to the Irish set up? If it was then at least we could have a discussion about actual performances rather than just spouting (not accusing you of this) subjective opinions.
                "They’re the benchmark that everyone else has to raise their game to meet." Alan Quinlan on Leinster

                Comment


                  #98
                  If Farrell want to play a quicker paced game involving quick ball movement etc that will mitigate against POM and CJ.

                  Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

                  Comment


                    #99
                    Again correcting myself. Ryan apparently fit again and due to play this weekend.
                    "They’re the benchmark that everyone else has to raise their game to meet." Alan Quinlan on Leinster

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by offshorerules View Post

                      True, they have played together before and played quite well, and that was my point. People are judging POM's and CJ's poor form on matches where they are playing in an unbalanced backrow.

                      However I didn't realise we were playing a game of fantasy rugby. Killer has been in great form for the last year in my opinion and could easily be the starting LH however Healy's form has been equally good so I don't see Killer edging him for Scotland. Ryan is out injured so that is not an option and we are likely as not going to have a pretty inexperienced hooker one way or the other so Toner is the logical choice alongside Henderson but Dillane might get a chance.

                      I do think though that this will be one of the most interesting selections we have seen in a long time. Back in the day there used to be a selection match of Probables V's Possibles, the Scots used to do it too and one year a team of Possibles including Scott and Gavin Hastings spanked the Probables and this led in turn to the Scots drastically changing their team in one fell swoop. It also led I believe (though I am open to correction) to their last Grand Slam winning squad. I wonder should this be reintroduced to the Irish set up? If it was then at least we could have a discussion about actual performances rather than just spouting (not accusing you of this) subjective opinions.
                      We could also bring back the Big 5 selection committee - 2 Leinster selectors, 2 Ulster and I Munster

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Munsterboy View Post

                        Why so down on Farrell?

                        He’s brought Kelleher, JOD, Deegan, Doris, Heffernan and O’Toole into the forwards, and Cooney, Burns and Byrne into the backs. That’s quite a few young players. Then there’s the four development lads too.

                        He’s also left out a number of Joe’s go-to men (Ruddock, Jordi and of course Rob).

                        Maybe see who he picks and how they play before worrying.
                        Except for Brian Ashton and the latter years of Eddie O'Sullivan's reign, Irish coaches have generally picked the best players available. Farrell doesn't seem to be any different. It's a small playing pool so it's not that hard. The downfall of most Irish coaches has been tactical rigidity and staleness of message. The progression is: opponents figure out what Ireland are doing and how to stop it; players lose heart and demand change; coach grants change and loses authority while results don't improve (players are not the strategic geniuses they thought they were), or coach doubles down on rigidity at the cost of morale; Ireland lose badly; coach's reign ends in debacle.

                        Farrell's previous experience as first-team coach (under DOR McCall) at Saracens ended with a loss to Leicester in the Premiership SF, when they looked nowhere near scoring tries, having only scored 35 of them in the season. They had managed a title the previous season with the same formula, but other teams adapted and they didn't. 2010-2012 in the Heineken Cup, they came up against quality sides in Leinster and Clermont and were outclassed. Sorely evident was the lack of invention when plan A failed.

                        Since then, Farrell has done reasonably well as a defence coach for England, The Lions and Ireland. Against that, he has done badly at two World Cups, where many blamed him for the inclusion of Sam Burgess in the England side and where Ireland conceded 46 points to New Zealand. His defensive system hadn't changed, but its effectiveness had. In 2015, Aus and Wales had players whose skills held up under pressure, and in 2019, NZ spent a season working out how to beat Ireland and managed it pretty easily in the end. There were two losses against England which should have been forewarning, but no visible changes to the system were made.

                        So that's the pattern for Farrell. Periods of success followed by harbinger defeats followed by denial followed by doom.

                        His first appointments as head-coach have been his old mate Mike Catt; Simon Easterby to defence coach, because he didn't have enough on his plate with the forwards, and John Fogarty to scrum coach. Otherwise, the set-up is unchanged. There has been no penalty for World Cup failure, or identification of who we need to rectify it. We've brought in an attack coach whose attacks have managed two tries at tier one level in two World Cups and that's it. It's as if the last year never happened.

                        I think you can see the point I'm making here. If Ireland want to do better, they need a genuinely innovative head coach who will surround himself with unit coaches who have track records of success outside of the 6N and European club rugby. The players need outside voices, and they need a head coach who knows how to change things when they start to go wrong. It is always possible that I am incorrect on this, but I don't see Farrell as that kind of coach. He is, like many things from that record-breaking run in 2018, outdated and not as good as claimed.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by In Joe we trust View Post
                          If Farrell want to play a quicker paced game involving quick ball movement etc that will mitigate against POM and CJ.

                          Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
                          Trolling again. Big Dev is glacially slow btw.
                          Yorn desh born, der ritt de gitt der gue,
                          Orn desh, dee born desh, de umn bork! bork! bork!

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Munsterboy View Post

                            Why so down on Farrell?

                            He’s brought Kelleher, JOD, Deegan, Doris, Heffernan and O’Toole into the forwards, and Cooney, Burns and Byrne into the backs. That’s quite a few young players. Then there’s the four development lads too.

                            He’s also left out a number of Joe’s go-to men (Ruddock, Jordi and of course Rob).

                            Maybe see who he picks and how they play before worrying.


                            He's under pressure from day one. After the world cup a new broom was needed. But the IRFU had already doubled down on the old one. Every single member of the coaching ticket should have been fired at the end of last season, and the dogs in the road know it.


                            I hope for everyone's sake that he succeeds. But he's under the cosh from the off.
                            "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                            "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                            "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post



                              He's under pressure from day one. After the world cup a new broom was needed. But the IRFU had already doubled down on the old one. Every single member of the coaching ticket should have been fired at the end of last season, and the dogs in the road know it.


                              I hope for everyone's sake that he succeeds. But he's under the cosh from the off.
                              The reality is, I believe, is that he only got the job because he was someone who could extend the old regime. As we’ve seen that that regime had some very very stark weaknesses. Thus the primary reason for his appointment is completely blown. I wish the guy all the best, Ireland needs him to be a success, but am clinging to the hope that Catt will price an inspired recruit.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post



                                He's under pressure from day one. After the world cup a new broom was needed. But the IRFU had already doubled down on the old one. Every single member of the coaching ticket should have been fired at the end of last season, and the dogs in the road know it.
                                The dogs on the road might know it, but some of the usual trolling hounds from Leinster here are too busy sniffing each other's bottoms as usual, to get their heads up to see that this coaching ticket is just a rejigged version of the failed last coaching team who oversaw the total decline & decimation of the Irish team through 2019.....

                                What are the bets on the ~ same coaching ticket reversing Ireland's form in 2020..... I'd say about as likely as stopping a mange ridden mongrel from licking his b@@alls.....
                                ____________________________________________
                                Munster were great when they were Munster.

                                alas they are just north munster now.......
                                ____________________________________________

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