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  • In Joe we trust
    replied
    Originally posted by ustix View Post

    From when there was barely 2 natives in Ireland's backs to compliment himself, Smith, Curtis, Staples and Speedy Simon Geoghegan
    Back in the days when we really were rubbish

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  • ustix
    replied
    Originally posted by In Joe we trust View Post
    Now that name is a blast from the past

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    From when there was barely 2 natives in Ireland's backs to compliment himself, Smith, Curtis, Staples and Speedy Simon Geoghegan

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  • In Joe we trust
    replied
    Originally posted by ustix View Post

    Not long after young Rob Saunders from over
    Now that name is a blast from the past

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  • ustix
    replied
    Originally posted by In Joe we trust View Post
    Already been done with Dion O'Cuinnegan though

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    Not long after young Rob Saunders from over

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  • In Joe we trust
    replied
    Originally posted by Waterfordlad View Post

    True, but imagine if a South African born player got captaincy. Ger Gilroy’s and Paul Kimmage’s heads would explode
    Already been done with Dion O'Cuinnegan though

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  • jagawayagain
    replied
    Originally posted by Waterfordlad View Post

    True, but imagine if a South African born player got captaincy. Ger Gilroy’s and Paul Kimmage’s heads would explode
    Maybe worth a temporary appointment even for that purpose alone.

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  • Waterfordlad
    replied
    Originally posted by In Joe we trust View Post
    If they are looking for an older captain then Ryan they should possibly look at CJ.

    Guaranteed his spot at either 6 or 8 no matter who is fit.

    Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
    True, but imagine if a South African born player got captaincy. Ger Gilroy’s and Paul Kimmage’s heads would explode

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  • In Joe we trust
    replied
    If they are looking for an older captain then Ryan they should possibly look at CJ.

    Guaranteed his spot at either 6 or 8 no matter who is fit.

    Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

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  • jagawayagain
    replied
    Originally posted by Munsterboy View Post

    Calling lineouts is irrelevant. Not a job the captain has to do or perhaps even should do.

    IMHO, when choosing an international captain, you need somebody who is:

    Nailed on
    Has the respect of the other players
    Can lead with both words and deeds
    Has the rugby intelligence
    Has the temperament to deal with refs

    Very few in the squad tick those boxes. POM ticks most of them, but how long more will he be nailed on? He’s also likely to pick up more injuries now that he’s entering his dotage, and it’s a stretch to see him making the next RWC the way he plays.

    Ryan ticks all the boxes except, for now, making himself heard. However, he’s led teams all the way up and had no problem talking and calling the shots at those levels. He was inspirational at U20 for example.

    He’s been in the Irish set up a couple of years and is now an established senior player with a RWC behind him. It’s the ideal time to usher in a new era by asking him to step up and become a more vocal leader. I think the players would follow him, and the opposition and refs would respect him.
    A POM Ryan axis might be the best way to go- with the mantle shifting with time. As is so often the case with selection were stuck between what we’d like to/think we should happen, and what those making the call are likely to do. While we have views, most of us are sensible enough to defer to the guys making the decision, they have the best knowledge and the responsibility. It’s intriguing thinking about what Farrell will do- how far will he take the steady as she goes evolutionary stance, and how far will he take the view, as many of us do here, that stuff really ought to have changed radically after the February England debacle, and now must without delay.

    I was chatting to a staunch england fan last night and he asked me about how I was thinking about the 6N, and I realised, regretfully, that I’m barely bothered, in part because of the blinkered way we approached the RWC. Wonder how many others feel the same way?

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  • Munsterboy
    replied
    Originally posted by Dowlinz View Post

    Is James Ryan even regularly calling lineouts yet? He doesn't seem very vocal on the pitch either in the same way as someone like Stander.
    He might get there but he's still only 23 and I'm just not getting the impression he's stepped up as a leader for Leinster or Ireland yet.
    Calling lineouts is irrelevant. Not a job the captain has to do or perhaps even should do.

    IMHO, when choosing an international captain, you need somebody who is:

    Nailed on
    Has the respect of the other players
    Can lead with both words and deeds
    Has the rugby intelligence
    Has the temperament to deal with refs

    Very few in the squad tick those boxes. POM ticks most of them, but how long more will he be nailed on? He’s also likely to pick up more injuries now that he’s entering his dotage, and it’s a stretch to see him making the next RWC the way he plays.

    Ryan ticks all the boxes except, for now, making himself heard. However, he’s led teams all the way up and had no problem talking and calling the shots at those levels. He was inspirational at U20 for example.

    He’s been in the Irish set up a couple of years and is now an established senior player with a RWC behind him. It’s the ideal time to usher in a new era by asking him to step up and become a more vocal leader. I think the players would follow him, and the opposition and refs would respect him.

    Leave a comment:


  • Balla Boy
    replied
    Originally posted by jagawayagain View Post

    Ha ha! I wonder whether having the captain from a minority province was/is a way of avoiding friction between leinster and Munster players, who inevitably provide the bulk of the squad. Aki seems fairly nailed on- selection wise- perhaps more so than Henderson- and can also see the logic of that. Farrell might well go for POM, though, tough as nails both of them, and the lions experience would count, you’d imagine.

    It may well. It's less the experience for me though than the...I don't what you'd call it. Precedent? Pedigree? The only thing that really points to potential captains for me is that other coaches in other teams at other levels have looked around the room and thought "that's the one".

    I don't know how much POM will or won't have learned from the experience. But it has to say something that Gatland didn't just pass over Farrell, O'Brien and Faletau, but made him Captain of a Lions' Test side that had Alun Wyn Jones in it.

    A man's got to be carrying some sort of heft in a player group for Gatland to make that sort of call. Politics maybe given the Welshness of the set up, but still....how easy would it have been for Gatland to give the captaincy to the then Welsh captain?

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  • jagawayagain
    replied
    Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post

    True - once in role I think it's far easier to get a sense of how they're doing. Particularly in relation to refs and media. But who steps up? 90% of the squad know in their bones, give or take the odd personal clash. Which is before we even consider how the armband can change a player.

    Henderson is Ulster captain but doesn't seem to be mentioned. POM has captained a Lions test team but is being written off by some.

    Best beat out Sexton, O'Brien and Heaslip when he got the Ireland captaincy, which surprised a few.

    I wouldn't be betting any money on the decision anyway, unless I actually was Andy Farrell. Or Rob Howley, like.
    Ha ha! I wonder whether having the captain from a minority province was/is a way of avoiding friction between leinster and Munster players, who inevitably provide the bulk of the squad. Aki seems fairly nailed on- selection wise- perhaps more so than Henderson- and can also see the logic of that. Farrell might well go for POM, though, tough as nails both of them, and the lions experience would count, you’d imagine.

    Leave a comment:


  • Balla Boy
    replied
    Originally posted by jagawayagain View Post

    Very hard to disagree with any of the BB, and certainly the ability to lead players, is a critical element, and one that the hurlers on the ditch are not really privy to. but there are other aspects, where fans can see how well the captain does. One of these is interacting with the referee, making sure, in so far as he can, that his side’s views are understood, and as far as possible looked favourably on by the ref, being waved away, a referee saying he cannot deal with an individual anymore, etc are failures on that front. The media side is also something we can see and judge, none of the names mentioned above are bad media performers, but it was something Best did very well.
    True - once in role I think it's far easier to get a sense of how they're doing. Particularly in relation to refs and media. But who steps up? 90% of the squad know in their bones, give or take the odd personal clash. Which is before we even consider how the armband can change a player.

    Henderson is Ulster captain but doesn't seem to be mentioned. POM has captained a Lions test team but is being written off by some.

    Best beat out Sexton, O'Brien and Heaslip when he got the Ireland captaincy, which surprised a few.

    I wouldn't be betting any money on the decision anyway, unless I actually was Andy Farrell. Or Rob Howley, like.

    Leave a comment:


  • jagawayagain
    replied
    Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post

    It's an odd thing, the discussion of Captain selections. People have very valid views on form and where in their career people are, but we can't know.

    Who outside of the Munster squad would have pointed to Felix Jones as a captain? Or Tyler Bleyendaal?

    There's plenty of people who've been selected as captains that we couldn't have anticipated from outside the squad. We can have a view on how people play, but it's almost impossible to say from outside of a team how that dynamic of leadership and authority work.

    The reality is, we don't know if Sexton's team mates look at him as a natural leader or just a shouty twat. We don't really know who sets the tone in the squad, who people look to instinctively for direction and which people are tolerated because of what they bring as players but largely seen as a pain in the hole.

    From experience at a far lower level with many teams over the years, the gap between those two things is very small indeed. Something in how someone carries themselves, an air that they generate. Very, very hard to pin down, and very hard to identify from the outside.
    Very hard to disagree with any of the BB, and certainly the ability to lead players, is a critical element, and one that the hurlers on the ditch are not really privy to. but there are other aspects, where fans can see how well the captain does. One of these is interacting with the referee, making sure, in so far as he can, that his side’s views are understood, and as far as possible looked favourably on by the ref, being waved away, a referee saying he cannot deal with an individual anymore, etc are failures on that front. The media side is also something we can see and judge, none of the names mentioned above are bad media performers, but it was something Best did very well.

    Leave a comment:


  • Balla Boy
    replied


    It's an odd thing, the discussion of Captain selections. People have very valid views on form and where in their career people are, but we can't know.

    Who outside of the Munster squad would have pointed to Felix Jones as a captain? Or Tyler Bleyendaal?

    There's plenty of people who've been selected as captains that we couldn't have anticipated from outside the squad. We can have a view on how people play, but it's almost impossible to say from outside of a team how that dynamic of leadership and authority work.

    The reality is, we don't know if Sexton's team mates look at him as a natural leader or just a shouty twat. We don't really know who sets the tone in the squad, who people look to instinctively for direction and which people are tolerated because of what they bring as players but largely seen as a pain in the hole.

    From experience at a far lower level with many teams over the years, the gap between those two things is very small indeed. Something in how someone carries themselves, an air that they generate. Very, very hard to pin down, and very hard to identify from the outside.

    Leave a comment:

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