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    #91
    Originally posted by Munsterboy View Post

    You’re oversimplifying where England are concerned. They have an excellent tactical kicking game and a very good wide game too, especially when they play Ford and Farrell together. Far more than just big carriers and tacklers.

    Ireland are similar in style to SA at the moment, one dimensional but not as big.

    We need to expand our game, and vary our selection, so we have a few strings to our bow. Don’t have to choose any one of the limited styles you’ve set out.
    Big Jack utilised hoofing ball coast to coast, pressurising the opposition and scoring off set-piece 30 years ago.
    Only got us to the last eight. Nothing wrong with any of that at opportune moments.
    We have to learn to mix it up and we have to play more than one playmaker to progress. 12 or 15 along with 10. Personally I'd be looking to Joey at 10 and Andy at 15 with Chris Farrell at 12. No better man than Larkham to oversee things on that front. We've a truckload of talent. Fingers crossed for Leavy.
    It's time to play ball, sometimes.
    Gwan Joe!!

    Comment


      #92
      Originally posted by Munsterboy View Post

      You’re oversimplifying where England are concerned. They have an excellent tactical kicking game and a very good wide game too, especially when they play Ford and Farrell together. Far more than just big carriers and tacklers.

      Ireland are similar in style to SA at the moment, one dimensional but not as big.

      We need to expand our game, and vary our selection, so we have a few strings to our bow. Don’t have to choose any one of the limited styles you’ve set out.
      I would argue that it's the big ball carriers that create the space to play wide and freedom to kick. The difference that Tuilagi makes to their backline due to his size and power is ridiculous. Combine that with 8 forwards who are all powerful ball carriers creates a lot more space for kicking/moving the ball.

      Combine that with huge physicality in the contest it means England tend to win the contact zone and get quicker go forward ball whilst giving the opposition slow static ball.

      Watch Ireland and when we get quick go forward ball (Scotland/Samoa) we can attack. When we don't (Japan) it's far harder to attack.

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        #93
        Jones has done a magnificent job with Manu- he is now fit and focussed, and a lot more mature. Camp seems tight, and the disciplinary stuff that went on earlier seems dead and buried.

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          #94
          Originally posted by In Joe we trust View Post

          I would argue that it's the big ball carriers that create the space to play wide and freedom to kick. The difference that Tuilagi makes to their backline due to his size and power is ridiculous. Combine that with 8 forwards who are all powerful ball carriers creates a lot more space for kicking/moving the ball.

          Combine that with huge physicality in the contest it means England tend to win the contact zone and get quicker go forward ball whilst giving the opposition slow static ball.

          Watch Ireland and when we get quick go forward ball (Scotland/Samoa) we can attack. When we don't (Japan) it's far harder to attack.
          I agree with you on that. I guess the point I’m making is that they compliment the big guys with playmakers who can kick and pass to exploit the space they create, and a back three who have the gas and running lines to use the ball they’re given.

          They don’t just carry and grind like Ireland try to do, they vary it so that you never know whether they’ll carry, skip it wide, or kick in behind you. Very very hard to defend against.

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            #95
            Originally posted by Munsterboy View Post

            I agree with you on that. I guess the point I’m making is that they compliment the big guys with playmakers who can kick and pass to exploit the space they create, and a back three who have the gas and running lines to use the ball they’re given.

            They don’t just carry and grind like Ireland try to do, they vary it so that you never know whether they’ll carry, skip it wide, or kick in behind you. Very very hard to defend against.
            Can't argue too much with that but it's unfortunate we're lacking in the ball carriers that England have - if we could have had Leavy and a fit/in-form SOB in the backrow with CJ it would create far more options in the ball carrying options with a Tuilagi at 13.

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              #96
              Originally posted by In Joe we trust View Post

              Can't argue too much with that but it's unfortunate we're lacking in the ball carriers that England have - if we could have had Leavy and a fit/in-form SOB in the backrow with CJ it would create far more options in the ball carrying options with a Tuilagi at 13.
              Could you bring back JFK while your arsing around in that Time machine.

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                #97
                Originally posted by In Joe we trust View Post

                Can't argue too much with that but it's unfortunate we're lacking in the ball carriers that England have - if we could have had Leavy and a fit/in-form SOB in the backrow with CJ it would create far more options in the ball carrying options with a Tuilagi at 13.
                Frankly, even with all of these fit and well, England would still be more powerful and have many more options in terms of how to play. Leavy and a fit SOB was a big loss, but I'm afraid we just haven't adapted as quickly or well as others have. Joe found a very very effective formula for playing with the players he had at his disposal, given their strengths, physique etc., unfortunately, other teams basically changed the equation. We now need a dispassionate assessment of where we are and can get to, avoiding provincial rivalries, with a preparedness to sacrifice sacred cows (players and policies) if that is what is needed. I hope for Ireland's sake Farrell is the man to do it. Ironically it is a task that probably needs a really cerebral coach like Schmidt when he came to Leinster.

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                  #98
                  Originally posted by Mumhain View Post

                  Agree regarding, Henshaw. It's not the biggest of our worries, but the Ringrose and Henshaw just lacks a little something, imo. They are prototype Schmidt players, in that they are relatively solid in most areas of the game, but they don't excel in any one area.

                  I would describe both players as being more glue players, rather than guys you build your attack around. Ringrose is very dangerous when he has space near the ruck or space out-wide, but I think sometime he is guilty of trying to cut-in a little too much. I think Ringrose is at his best when he is creating space for himself, rather than when he is creating space for others. It's never in a million years going to happen, but I would like to see Ringrose get a shot on the wing for Leinster/Ireland.

                  I also agree regarding McCloskey and Farrell. I think both are superior passers to Henshaw and both offer a lot more power and ability to draw defenses to get tighter. The only clear advantage I see Henshaw having over them is his kicking and fielding and I'm not sure this matters a whole lot at centre.
                  Ringrose does not have enough speed to play on the wing. On recent showings he barely has the gas to play 13 and can never quite make the clean break.

                  Erse end of nowhere

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                    #99
                    Originally posted by Spiffy View Post

                    Ringrose does not have enough speed to play on the wing. On recent showings he barely has the gas to play 13 and can never quite make the clean break.
                    I think we have lots of wings, and plenty coming through, who have real speed; it’s an functioning 9/10 and midfield partnership we need to find. I think Ringrose can be a key part of that- the problem is with whom. I’d like to see Farrell and Ringrose tried. Maybe if we start Farrell at 13 and have Daly/Goggin outside- that might become the longer term Irish partnership.

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                      Originally posted by jagawayagain View Post

                      I think we have lots of wings, and plenty coming through, who have real speed; it’s an functioning 9/10 and midfield partnership we need to find. I think Ringrose can be a key part of that- the problem is with whom. I’d like to see Farrell and Ringrose tried. Maybe if we start Farrell at 13 and have Daly/Goggin outside- that might become the longer term Irish partnership.
                      If Addison stays fit and gets to play 13 for Ulster, he would be a serious contender. He is a good footballer and he's got some genuine gas. Farrell impressed in his limited opportunities at the RWC and was seriously underused by Schmidt. At some point a Farrell/Addison combination might be worth a look. Goggin seems to be coming along well too, and the other Farrell - Tom, of Connacht.
                      I'm fed up watching the Henshaw/Ringrose partnership. They are overrated and just not delivering the goods.
                      We have some good centres coming through, so maybe Henshaw should revert to his old spot of FB - he was pretty good there at one time, but now I wonder if he has the speed, and would he be good enough to displace Larmour or Conway anyway(Addison is a decent FB too.)

                      Erse end of nowhere

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Spiffy View Post

                        If Addison stays fit and gets to play 13 for Ulster, he would be a serious contender. He is a good footballer and he's got some genuine gas. Farrell impressed in his limited opportunities at the RWC and was seriously underused by Schmidt. At some point a Farrell/Addison combination might be worth a look. Goggin seems to be coming along well too, and the other Farrell - Tom, of Connacht.
                        I'm fed up watching the Henshaw/Ringrose partnership. They are overrated and just not delivering the goods.
                        We have some good centres coming through, so maybe Henshaw should revert to his old spot of FB - he was pretty good there at one time, but now I wonder if he has the speed, and would he be good enough to displace Larmour or Conway anyway(Addison is a decent FB too.)
                        As you say there are lots of options- and all in favour of trying them out. A lot of this year it was Aki/Ringrose, because Henshaw was out, but whoever was there they were on picked in so far as they played the way Joe wanted them to- with a different game plan even those who played this year might be more effective. We cannot play the way we did anymore and expect to beat good teams- who knows what Ali/etc can do when they are playing to a plan that might actually suit them more. If Farrell makes no promises about who will be selected, the inter pro games this year will be very interesting- because rather than weakened teams we might actually have guys playing for a green jersey.

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                          Cummiskey has a big piece in the IT today where he stabs Joe in the back and gives the knife a twist for good measure.

                          Much of what he writes about the damaging control freakery is true, but reading it you’d swear he hadn’t been one of Schmidt’s foremost cheerleaders over the years.

                          A couple of gems:

                          “Maybe if other Schmidt followers, besides Horgan, spoke up sooner positive change could have intervened. The same lament was heard in 2007 and 2011 when leaders were too subservient to challenge the coaches’ authority despite glaring weaknesses.”

                          I assume he’s referring to everybody but himself there. It’s clearly all IJWT’s fault. And:

                          “Leading characters will monetise Ireland’s disastrous World Cup campaign. Just like the 2007 generation, autobiographies are inevitable. It would be a surprise if Schmidt and Best did not publish memoirs. Kearney’s would be a riveting read.

                          Can’t wait for that one. The cover photo will no doubt be just gawrjus!

                          Comment


                            Looking fwd to reading how Gatland, Jones, Hansen etc had the wrong plan but the Rassie plan implemented by Munster would have won the RWC

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                              After our quarter-final creasing by ABs one would believe the new trend for big but skillful, lean, athletic, ball handling forwards, and all attacking skills would dominate the game and then sheer power and powerful defence undid them - and now the RWC has been won by basic, physically powerful, traditional rugby!! And a 10 who could kick the leather off the ball. I'm confused but still believe that the style SA won with is only feasible with beasts like Kolisi, Etzebeth, Snyman, Vermeulen, and the invredible PS Du Toit, and basically all their forwards in the squad, Old hands came back just in time from abroad to bolster the squad.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by isola ciarrai View Post
                                After our quarter-final creasing by ABs one would believe the new trend for big but skillful, lean, athletic, ball handling forwards, and all attacking skills would dominate the game and then sheer power and powerful defence undid them - and now the RWC has been won by basic, physically powerful, traditional rugby!! And a 10 who could kick the leather off the ball. I'm confused but still believe that the style SA won with is only feasible with beasts like Kolisi, Etzebeth, Snyman, Vermeulen, and the invredible PS Du Toit, and basically all their forwards in the squad, Old hands came back just in time from abroad to bolster the squad.
                                Their kicking game (and subsequent chase) isolated individual members of the back three as well- it wasn’t just a kick it away /see how you get on running it back from there type of approach- they competed for most kicks and won most of those that went wide, and isolated the receiver when they went long. Di Toit, was simply outstanding- last week Corry etc had a field day- today they were nearly silent. I wonder whether Hansen, if he had his chance again, would select a guy who had never played wing forward at that level. Similarly Manu had a huge game last week, it was half an hour in before his name was mentioned. Various fans on England sites are saying they peaked too soon etc. But for me, they they were outfought and outthought. They weren’t squeezed like Joe tries to do, they were pushed backwards, and when the cracks began to show, SA were good enough to use them to move away from a simply forward dominated game.

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