Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

So what happens next?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #16
    Originally posted by In Joe we trust View Post

    But we haven't seen him play at a fast pace for Munster either in the last couple of years though.
    In games where Ireland have been licensed to up the pace, he has I think. But Munster's attacking philosophy has hardly been inspired either.
    "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

    "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


    "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

    Comment


      #17
      Originally posted by In Joe we trust View Post

      But we haven't seen him play at a fast pace for Munster either in the last couple of years though.
      He can and still does when that’s the plan and, more crucially, the ball is quick (see the warm up against Sales, or the game against Samoa). But with both Munster and Ireland he’s often having to dig it out due to our laboured approach.

      We’ll need to develop a successor for him over the next couple of years, but he, like a few others, has a role to play in the transition, and it’s probably a good idea to have his experience alongside whichever young lad replaces Sexton.

      Comment


        #18
        I want a 4-year strategy, not a 6N year-to-year plan. Optimising the 6N over the 4-year RWC cycle may be financially more viable for the IRFU, but getting knocked out in quarter-final after quarter-final is killing us psychologically - tapping on the semi-final door with a matchstick instead of whacking it with a mallet is totally head-wrecking.

        If that means that Healy, Toner, Cronin, Sexton, Earls and Kearney and others have only one more 6N season pending a transition then that's what we have to do. Come the Autumn internationals in 2020, only 2023 squad contenders should play.
        "I don't believe in fairytales," O'Connell once told me, "even though it feels like I've been lucky enough to live through a few. However it ends, I'll feel lucky."
        Donald McRae, Guardian Rugby, October 2015

        Comment


          #19
          I don’t get the short term strategy either. Ireland always sell their 6N tickets.Even when we were unbelievably cr,p tickets were hard, albeit easier then now, to come by.
          I agree with above that the 2nd line haven’t really impressed, however for many they are guaranteed to start at their provinces and that may prioritise what they work on.
          I think the game strategy is key. Our ruck based, and maul based strategy is very referee dependent. I think when we get a couple of close or even bizarre calls against us early doors, we go into our shell, our line speed and clear out speed diminish and then our game is doomed.

          Comment


            #20
            It's not just ticket sales in six Nations, I dont think that's a deciding factor as they will likely always sell. It's sponsorship and supplementary sales and contracts. Losing a big game or two early on I suspect could have big impact on revenue. Not saying that's the best way to go about it but the irfu and Provence's have had a steady and somwhat predictable revenue stream this way I suspect. Wales however will have an off year here and there and have a better squad as a result longer term
            "Some people don't know their easy lives... I wouldn't be so ungrateful" - Fiacre Ryan - #AutismAndMe

            Comment


              #21
              Originally posted by blackwarrior View Post
              I want a 4-year strategy, not a 6N year-to-year plan. Optimising the 6N over the 4-year RWC cycle may be financially more viable for the IRFU, but getting knocked out in quarter-final after quarter-final is killing us psychologically - tapping on the semi-final door with a matchstick instead of whacking it with a mallet is totally head-wrecking.

              If that means that Healy, Toner, Cronin, Sexton, Earls and Kearney and others have only one more 6N season pending a transition then that's what we have to do. Come the Autumn internationals in 2020, only 2023 squad contenders should play.
              Couldn't disagree more. NZ don't work on any four year plans. They pursue a culture and expectation of excellence year to year and take world cups in their stride.

              Planning a four year cycle around the "aspiration" of not winning a competition is what got us to this place - a "one last push" view from Joe that he might scrape a semi.

              We need to be always growing, always challenging, always rewarding form and performance. If that coincides with a WC year so be it.

              I'd take a six nations championship ahead of any world cup semi final.
              "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

              "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


              "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

              Comment


                #22
                Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post

                Couldn't disagree more. NZ don't work on any four year plans. They pursue a culture and expectation of excellence year to year and take world cups in their stride.

                Planning a four year cycle around the "aspiration" of not winning a competition is what got us to this place - a "one last push" view from Joe that he might scrape a semi.

                We need to be always growing, always challenging, always rewarding form and performance. If that coincides with a WC year so be it.

                I'd take a six nations championship ahead of any world cup semi final.
                I used to have that view. But a lot of these players are going to take the failure of Saturday into their retirement. Ireland have, happily, demonstrated that the rugby system in this country is strong enough to produce 6N winning teams. But players and coaches surely want to measure themselves at a higher level. Remember when Triple Crowns were an end in themselves? I think times change, and now that Ireland know what it’s like to beat SH teams regularly, the bar has been raised imo.

                Getting the RWC QF monkey off people’s backs is a pretty important aim now I think. Building towards a 2023 competition for Ireland would need a specific goal like that set and coaches and players challenged on that.

                As for NZ I don’t think we have e conveyor belt or volume of talent to rely on continuous excellence alone, not do many other countries.


                Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                "I don't believe in fairytales," O'Connell once told me, "even though it feels like I've been lucky enough to live through a few. However it ends, I'll feel lucky."
                Donald McRae, Guardian Rugby, October 2015

                Comment


                  #23
                  We need to decide if we are happy with winning 6N championships and the odd slam in the mid years of world cup cycles when everyone else is rebuilding or if we want to go full on for the world cup.
                  If I was Andy Farrell, the first thing I would do is appoint James Ryan captain so he has 4 years captaincy experience come the next RWC, on the basis that POM may not make the next world cup, I’d then say lads James is guaranteed his place, the rest of you aren’t and go from there.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Game Plans, do NZ have game plans? They just go out and attack, playing with skill and freedom from the coach. Their basic handling skills thought from a young age are fantastic, always looking to keep an attack going. Always a player in support , Joe was a tad too conservative, very defensive game plans, we have a back line that can attack let’s use this as a plus and push on
                    psychoanalysis is wasted on the Irish; Sigmund Freud

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by treatycity1 View Post
                      Game Plans, do NZ have game plans? They just go out and attack, playing with skill and freedom from the coach. Their basic handling skills thought from a young age are fantastic, always looking to keep an attack going. Always a player in support , Joe was a tad too conservative, very defensive game plans, we have a back line that can attack let’s use this as a plus and push on


                      Of course they have a game plan. They soak up everything you throw at them, put you under huge pressure and punish the life out of you when you eventually make a mistake, and with the physicality and intensity they bring to the game you will make a mistake.

                      They know the scrum isn’t a weapon, but not a massive weakness, they run support lines for possession not for players, the look to offload instead of creating rucks and recycling.



                      Comment


                        #26
                        Originally posted by LongtimeLurker View Post
                        We need to decide if we are happy with winning 6N championships and the odd slam in the mid years of world cup cycles when everyone else is rebuilding or if we want to go full on for the world cup.
                        If I was Andy Farrell, the first thing I would do is appoint James Ryan captain so he has 4 years captaincy experience come the next RWC, on the basis that POM may not make the next world cup, I’d then say lads James is guaranteed his place, the rest of you aren’t and go from there.
                        Nobody is guaranteed a place, that’s part of the problem.

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by blackwarrior View Post

                          I used to have that view. But a lot of these players are going to take the failure of Saturday into their retirement. Ireland have, happily, demonstrated that the rugby system in this country is strong enough to produce 6N winning teams. But players and coaches surely want to measure themselves at a higher level. Remember when Triple Crowns were an end in themselves? I think times change, and now that Ireland know what it’s like to beat SH teams regularly, the bar has been raised imo.

                          Getting the RWC QF monkey off people’s backs is a pretty important aim now I think. Building towards a 2023 competition for Ireland would need a specific goal like that set and coaches and players challenged on that.

                          As for NZ I don’t think we have e conveyor belt or volume of talent to rely on continuous excellence alone, not do many other countries.


                          Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

                          But that's my point - you can't plan a 4 year cycle to target one knock out match in 2023. It's a bogus concept.

                          We've just witnessed a failed attempt at it by the most successful coach in our history.

                          We will get past world cup Quarter Finals when we give up on the notion that you can build a four year plan around it. It's that that caused Kearney to be untouchable when he should have been off the panel. It's that that's led to a Captain who was visibly burning out for the last 6 months but couldn't be replaced because it was "too late in the cycle".

                          The notion of a four year cycle causes an over-investment in a set of players defined too far out to be certain of making it, restricts the emergence of talent that comes through "too late", and creates a sense that the bets placed on certain players are so large that they have to be seen through. We sink in years of investment in a set group, and then chase our losses when the wheels start to come off.

                          I don't think you'd get away with that in any other performance environment.

                          Getting to a World Cup semi final should be a goal, of course. Winning a world cup should. But we won't ever get there by trying to pull off hail mary four year plans.

                          We need a culture where talent and potential are fast tracked, performance is rewarded, top talent fostered and it's never "too late in the cycle" to change things whether its game plan or personnel.


                          When we beat New Zealand last Autumn they went away and changed their systems, a year out from the world cup. We weathered 8 months of hidings in the belief that we'd mortgaged the 4 year cycle on plan A and it was too late to change.

                          It's a broken concept.


                          Sam Underhill is 23 and played his first 6 nations last year. Curry is 21 and made his 6N debut this year. They started and England match together for the first time in August.

                          4 year plans are balls.
                          "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                          "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                          "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                          Comment


                            #28


                            Worth having a look at this:

                            https://www.rugbypass.com/news/analy...re-line-speed/

                            Break down of the new pod system the ABs introduced this year. Moving Barrett to 15 is the most visible change, but Ardie Savea is in, Reece and Bridge in, Ioane dropped, Smith benched.


                            We don't have the NZ production line, without a doubt. But this shows, I think, what a success driven culture in a national set up looks like.


                            In any organisation, in any field, the best way of planning for the future is not to try to predict what will happen, but to build a culture that's committed to and capable of innovation and transformation whenever its needed, and never stops looking for it.

                            That should be the plan.
                            "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                            "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                            "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                            Comment


                              #29
                              i didnt think we really had a 4 year system. i thought 6N was the priority and whether official or not a world cup, while being a target, would not be at the expense of a 6N
                              "Some people don't know their easy lives... I wouldn't be so ungrateful" - Fiacre Ryan - #AutismAndMe

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Originally posted by Hugged Rugger View Post
                                i didnt think we really had a 4 year system. i thought 6N was the priority and whether official or not a world cup, while being a target, would not be at the expense of a 6N


                                Until recent renewals, extensions or departures, we had Schmidt, Best, O’Brien, McGrath, Murray, Earle, Kearney, Henshaw, Sexton and Healy all contracted to 2019.

                                Bar Toner, who expires in 20, all the other central contracts are to the mid point of the next in 21 - Henderson, Stander, O’Mahony, Furlong.

                                Farrell’s contract is to 2023.

                                Players will play their way in and out, but that four year cycle is the foundation of the planning.
                                "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                                "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                                "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X