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  • Balla Boy
    replied
    Originally posted by Munsterboy View Post

    They wanted a tall TH lock, which Dillane is not, so it came down to a choice between Toner and Kleyn, and Kleyn was in better form and better equipped for the rigours of a RWC in Japan. Simple as that. It was tough for Toner but not unjustified on the basis of form or ability/suitability.



    I'm not convinced by this, tbh, re: the locks. I think the assumption that Kleyn for Toner was a head to head choice seems straightforward, but there was more going on.

    Beirne, Henderson and Toner all had fitness issues around the 6 nations.


    Once fit, JS committed to Henderson and Ryan as his starting pair, and included Beirne too.

    Roux was on the bench vs England, started against Scotland, started against Italy, benched against Wales.

    It's speculation, but for my money Toner was done as soon as JS decided that Henderson and Ryan would start. With Beirne taking the back up slot for a more mobile lock (a head to head with Dillane I think) it left the "heavy timber" slot that Roux had filled (having initially been left out of the 6N squad).

    In a straight race yes, Kleyn got the last slot and Toner missed out. But I just don't think they were head to head for selection. Toner lost out to Henderson, ultimately, and didn't have a role as a "finisher".





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  • In Joe we trust
    replied
    Originally posted by whimpersnap View Post
    I don't really know why anyone would think JGP will be first-choice for Leinster. McGrath is a much better player.
    I have to disagree there. McGrath maybe a better defender and box kicker but his speed to get the ball away from the ruck and the quality of his passing is far inferior.

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  • Munsterboy
    replied
    Originally posted by whimpersnap View Post
    I don't really know why anyone would think JGP will be first-choice for Leinster. McGrath is a much better player.
    It’s what a few Leinster supporters I know have said. I haven’t seen enough of JGP to judge myself but can’t say I’ve ever been impressed by McGrath.

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  • jagawayagain
    replied
    Originally posted by whimpersnap View Post
    I don't really know why anyone would think JGP will be first-choice for Leinster. McGrath is a much better player.
    For Leinster’s sake I really hope this isn’t true- because McGrath looked pretty average in the RWC.

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  • whimpersnap
    replied
    I don't really know why anyone would think JGP will be first-choice for Leinster. McGrath is a much better player.

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  • Munsterboy
    replied
    Originally posted by In Joe we trust View Post

    If you wanted to bring a more mobile 2nd row I could understand bringing Dillane but in my opinion Kleyn is not at the same level as Toner.

    Wasn't Blade starting a lot of Connacht games ahead of Marmian though and I don't think Marmian had his best season (but I still wouldn't have taken McGrath).
    They wanted a tall TH lock, which Dillane is not, so it came down to a choice between Toner and Kleyn, and Kleyn was in better form and better equipped for the rigours of a RWC in Japan. Simple as that. It was tough for Toner but not unjustified on the basis of form or ability/suitability.

    Blade was getting plenty of games for Connacht because they rotate and Marmion was regularly involved with Ireland, but Marmion was still first choice and in good form. There was no justification for dropping him for McGrath, who won’t be first choice for Leinster now JGP is eligible. You could argue Cooney should have gone, but he barely got a look in before being packed off back to Ulster, which was just bizarre.

    The reason given by Joe, btw, was that McGrath’s a better box kicker. If that doesn’t speak volumes about the paucity of imagination and ambition in the Irish set up coming into the RWC, I don’t know what does.

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  • jagawayagain
    replied
    Rugby fans here think he was hard done by, face didn’t fit and the clubs made his time a misery, wanted more control and RFU and premiership wouldn’t back him. Jones was a bit more box-office, and after a succession of English coaches who couldn’t follow what sir Clive did, there wasn’t the conviction/belief in Lancaster. While there is sympathy for him, I don’t hear anyone saying they’d take him back.

    Like others here i doubt Farrell would get the job if he applied for it now. Lancaster goes to seem to me to offer that much more.

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  • Finnegan79
    replied
    Originally posted by lawrence View Post


    lots of talk about Lancaster of late. Am I wrong to say his record as a head coach includes no six nations win and the only host country to not get out of their group in the RWC?

    Farrell has a lot to get right before the Scotland game which is in 14 weeks, and very little squad time to do it.
    His defense was torn apart in japan and needs a lot of work, but he can’t spend all his time on defense.

    Things could get a lot worse before they get better.
    he finished second all 4 years in the 6N, has a win against the AB's on his record, and some of the key guys on the 2015 team were pretty young; that pool wasn't easy. Wales, Aus and England all in it; somebody from the top 8 had to lose out, it happened to be them.

    I'm not saying that he's some mastermind coach, just that Farrell spent some years with him, Leinster's performance improved when he got on board; their attack hasn't been wanting the way ireland's has been. maybe some of that rubbed off on Farrell. Hopefully he sees that the attack needs serious revamping and skills work is a bit more important than set piece strike plays. There are more opportunities within a match to use finely honed skills than to pull off a perfect set piece play.

    Lets not forget that Schmidt micromanaged everything about the team. I have a feeling that it wore on the players after a while. You can tolerate it when the results are good, when they go south and the man in charge starts blaming everything else but himself, players may check out mentally.

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  • In Joe we trust
    replied
    Originally posted by Munsterboy View Post

    Yes, because Toner had been struggling for form and, at 33, was clearly in decline and was never really equipped for the pace of game we’d face in Japan. Kleyn wasn’t a huge improvement but you could see the logic in picking the younger, fitter, more mobile man.

    McGrath brought no discernible advantage over Marmion, who was in good form and right at his peak.
    If you wanted to bring a more mobile 2nd row I could understand bringing Dillane but in my opinion Kleyn is not at the same level as Toner.

    Wasn't Blade starting a lot of Connacht games ahead of Marmian though and I don't think Marmian had his best season (but I still wouldn't have taken McGrath).

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  • Munsterboy
    replied
    Originally posted by In Joe we trust View Post

    Was it any different to Toner being dropped?
    Yes, because Toner had been struggling for form and, at 33, was clearly in decline and was never really equipped for the pace of game we’d face in Japan. Kleyn wasn’t a huge improvement but you could see the logic in picking the younger, fitter, more mobile man.

    McGrath brought no discernible advantage over Marmion, who was in good form and right at his peak.

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  • jagawayagain
    replied
    Originally posted by In Joe we trust View Post

    Was it any different to Toner being dropped?
    Yes, we had competent other locks to choose from. By your own admission McGrath's selection was a mistake

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  • JN.Allezdax.com
    replied
    What does make England's success since Jones took the team in charge? They are physically far above the opponents. Rarely saw ABs being under such a pressure in the first half I watched two days ago.I read in the past training under Eddie is even harder and violent than the games.
    On this base, they literally bowl the opponents in attack when they trample the defenses in the wake of their bulked explosive back rowers, and in their offensive rush defense stifling the whole offensive system of the opponent. For exemple, look how they spoil the rucks (Itoje is a monster in this domain), allowing their defense line to be already beyond the line of advantage as the opponent 10 gets the ball.
    And this from the beginning to the end of the game as they showed in Croker last winter of in the preparation game against Ireland in London or even against the ABs...
    They play a cold, organized, disciplined and feelingless war game and if you cannot contest it, you're lost. And their defense is the strong point of their game. Ideas and skills are not enough as the Abs showed. Physical challenge and organisation are not enough as Ireland showed last winter.
    Farrell is a defense specialist coming from the Rugby League. Most of the most efficient defense specialists of the game come from the Rugby League. During the last decades, the RL defense culture infused in the Rugby Union Does not mean that Rugby League proposes a closed game. But in this sport the physically dimension is, let's be clear, terrifying. Destroying the opponent is the alpha and the omega of the strategy: Destroying in defense to instill the doubt in the ooponent's head, to let him make the decisions slowly, destroying him in attack, so the off-load becomes a deadly weapon. Farrell has this culture. If we stay to this domain, not sure we will be able to compete, and then, this will be Mike Catt's role to allow some life, ideas, and some culture of surpise and uncertainty in the irish game. We cannot continue to play a game where static players get the ball and break their head against strong defenses. We cannot continue to play a game where going to the ground stays the base of the game. There are enough talented pacefull players in Ireland to imagine a more ambitious game. Organization is naturally necessary in such a game, but it must not be a yoke.
    The irish spirit is made of sense of sacrifice, of fight, of humility and of madness. Let this take a right place in the irish rugby. For the pleasure of the players, for the pleasure of the fans. Let's hope that Farrell will let it the place it deserves.

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  • lawrence
    replied
    Originally posted by Cowboy View Post
    So was Cooney to be frank
    Yep, and you can be whoever you want.

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  • Cowboy
    replied
    Originally posted by lawrence View Post

    Yea, because Kleyn is playing better than toner and marmion is playing better than McGrath.
    So was Cooney to be frank

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  • lawrence
    replied
    Originally posted by In Joe we trust View Post

    Was it any different to Toner being dropped?
    Yea, because Kleyn is playing better than toner and marmion is playing better than McGrath.

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