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Women's 6 Nations 2019

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    #31
    Just watched the second half (couldn't stay with it last night) - Italy fully earned that win, and tbh could have had a greater margin of victory had either of two potential yellow cards in quick succession been shown to Lindsay Peat or Ciara Griffin. Thought the ref let us get away with a couple of other offences as well (commentators thought the same). A great moment for Italian Women's rugby which they will rightly celebrate. But as OL says, there needs to be a proper rethink of how we support women's rugby here because I think we've largely squandered the opportunity to build on the achievements and progress of a few years ago and have in fact gone backwards.
    Tis but a scratch.

    Comment


      #32
      Originally posted by mr chips View Post
      Just watched the second half (couldn't stay with it last night) - Italy fully earned that win, and tbh could have had a greater margin of victory had either of two potential yellow cards in quick succession been shown to Lindsay Peat or Ciara Griffin. Thought the ref let us get away with a couple of other offences as well (commentators thought the same). A great moment for Italian Women's rugby which they will rightly celebrate. But as OL says, there needs to be a proper rethink of how we support women's rugby here because I think we've largely squandered the opportunity to build on the achievements and progress of a few years ago and have in fact gone backwards.
      Its a mix of changes needed at the high performance level and growth at grassroots and helping each feed the other.
      Club level needs changes around AIL. Interpro series needs improving/changes. Thats a start and isnt even looking at what directly happens with the irish side/squad

      Comment


        #33
        Ireland being beaten 35-12 and France just got red card for forearm to face. Would have given yellow myself(from first view as thought the irish player was hit lower but had to be red on second viewing of incident) so france down to 14 for last 20 minutes will get Ireland a bonus point at least
        Last edited by ormond lad; 9th-March-2019, 20:31.

        Comment


          #34
          47-17 to France with 5 to go.

          Comment


            #35
            Finished 47-17.
            Ireland 4th. need to beat Welsh next week to stay 4th otherwise will be worst 6 nations performance in quite some time

            Comment


              #36
              I'm afraid that the women's six nations is finished as a competition. France are the only team who can give England anything approaching competition. While this is all well and good for England it doesn't do much for the game. The difference in infrastructure between Women's rugby in England and the other home countries is so stark I cannot see how the gap will ever be closed.

              Comment


                #37
                Originally posted by DABOSS View Post
                I'm afraid that the women's six nations is finished as a competition. France are the only team who can give England anything approaching competition. While this is all well and good for England it doesn't do much for the game. The difference in infrastructure between Women's rugby in England and the other home countries is so stark I cannot see how the gap will ever be closed.
                Wouldnt say its finished
                In history of tournament England are completely dominant(in 23 tournaments England have 14 championships with 13 grand slams)
                France have by and large been only side to ever compete.
                The difference in infrastructure is huge. Ive friends playing in England and theyve a huge league structure and it just doesnt exist in other countries
                Look at Munster. Great that Bohs do so well but not great that so many players are with them and would be far better for game overall if players were spread across more teams to improve standards and depth of teams competing

                Comment


                  #38
                  Just finished watching the game. Very disappointing scoreline and result, but I actually thought there was a step up from our previous games in terms of attitude and attack. Defence was brutal for several of the French tries but that's only half the story, as the French attack was sublime especially out wide (no. 14 was just on another level entirely). But I was hugely impressed with the likes of Ciara Griffin and Clare Molloy, plus our 17 year old sub whose name escapes me.
                  Tis but a scratch.

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by ormond lad View Post
                    Wouldnt say its finished
                    In history of tournament England are completely dominant(in 23 tournaments England have 14 championships with 13 grand slams)
                    France have by and large been only side to ever compete.
                    The difference in infrastructure is huge. Ive friends playing in England and theyve a huge league structure and it just doesnt exist in other countries
                    Look at Munster. Great that Bohs do so well but not great that so many players are with them and would be far better for game overall if players were spread across more teams to improve standards and depth of teams competing
                    I think with the advent of professionalism this season the playing field has changed. No one has come close to England this year and I can't see how that is going to change. Its akin to todays mens Irish team playing the Irish team of the 80s.

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by DABOSS View Post

                      I think with the advent of professionalism this season the playing field has changed. No one has come close to England this year and I can't see how that is going to change. Its akin to todays mens Irish team playing the Irish team of the 80s.
                      But the point im making is England have always been very far ahead bar a few years(focus on 7s when most of their best missed the 6 nations is one of just 2 times they havent finished first or second) France can challenge them and have done so.

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Originally posted by ormond lad View Post
                        But the point im making is England have always been very far ahead bar a few years(focus on 7s when most of their best missed the 6 nations is one of just 2 times they havent finished first or second) France can challenge them and have done so.
                        I understood your historical point but as their 15 team is now professional no one including France will give them any competition.

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Very disappointing tournament for the women, encapsulated by today's loss to the Welsh and ending up fifth (Italy finished second after beating France today 31-12). The post-match studio discussion on RTE was extremely honest and insightful - while Daire O'Briain just seemed to want to blame the players (his opening line was "Sugarcoating time or telling the truth time?"), by contrast the panellists Fiona Steed, Jenny Murphy and Lynne Cantwell provided excellent insight into how the 15s women's game has been let down in recent years by the IRFU and how poorly underpinned it is here.
                          Last edited by mr chips; 17th-March-2019, 15:59.
                          Tis but a scratch.

                          Comment


                            #43
                            I thought it was worth putting up a summary of the key points made in that discussion - I'll freely admit that while I'm interested in and supportive of the women's game, I lack more detailed knowledge about the barriers it has been facing and IMO this gave some real insight into a few of the issues that have to be overcome.

                            Fiona Steed: We won the Women's 6N in 2013 and 2015, and also made it to the Women's RWC semi-final in 2014. We've had 2 years of "transition" and hoped to see improvement, but have gone from beating Wales 35-12 last year to this result (24-5 loss).

                            Lynne Cantwell: Players shouldn't bear full responsibility for where we're at and for this campaign - coaches need to take responsibility for their tenure. We finished 8th in the last WRWC, 4th in the one before that (better than the men have managed thus far!). While each country has its own plan for aspiring at a high performance level, we need to understand what Ireland's plan is. Irish sport is competitive at 15s and at 7s, but 15s is currently not being supported and driven the way 7s is even though 15s is a sport in which we can compete for world medals. We've gone from 4th in the world to possibly not qualifying for the next WRWC.

                            Jenny Murphy: Players give everything to the game - they put life, career, family on hold for this. The union needs to step up and put proper pathways in place. Why is there no U20s team or underage structure, unlike every other team in the Women's 6N? The gap from club to international is too wide - players can't be expected to just make that leap. The IRFU have exposed the players to the criticism they are now facing.

                            FS: Some of the responsibility is on the players as some of it is about basic errors - handling, decision-making. But e.g. regarding a malfunctioning setpiece, we had a hooker who before this tournament had never played a competitive 15-a-side game at hooker. There was no 2nd row on the bench today, nor for the entire tournament so when one of our locks went off injured early in the game, one of our most effective back rows Ciara Griffin had to move into the second row. For all the good initiatives that are happening at grassroots (Aldi Play Rugby, Give It A Try programme) which are increasing participation rates at a lower level and which will eventually bear fruit, the pace of change is too slow and it's not acceptable to have to suffer this while waiting for those small positives to yield results.

                            DOB: Let's get back to being blunt about the players. Are the players the ones to take us forward or not?

                            LC: They are the best that we have, which is reflective of our system & our pipeline. We can change that in 2 years if there's true direction and focus, improving current players and bringing through more developed competition from below. There will naturally be some turnover anyway.

                            DOB: If any senior players are thinking of scattering, they'll be doing it after today.

                            JM: That's not a decision they'll have made because of this campaign - for any who do decide to bow out, it would have been decided beforehand and would be fair enough, as they've given so much to their country already. A lot of what we would call our senior players have less than 20 caps, unlike Italy/England/France. It's difficult going into a campaign with that lack of experienced heads. (In response to DOB) Yes she is angry - there is talent there and the players themselves will say they can do better, but the support needs to be there. The union needs to get behind it because it's not good enough any more.

                            FS: There is time to right this, for things to improve. There is some support for underage at provincial level, but will they take the next step and make the provincial series home & away? There's a need for good opposition and for high strength/highly physical games. Look at Bebhíonn Parsons, who is very talented and did very well despite not having played a club game before being capped as an international.

                            LC: Each country follows its own model, and Ireland have to decide which one we have to follow in order to map our success. Bebhíonn has come through a strong pathway in Connacht with good coaching. LC doesn't normally want to reference her own era for fear of creating a "them & us" comparison, but in her era there was exceptional technical direction from Steve Abboud, who took Philip Doyle under his wing & used the team then to teach the girls a different style of rugby, similar to a French or Italian style. It was excellent coaching to try and read the game well, to understand the tactical decisions you make at different points on the pitch, provide the technical understanding you need to make those decisions and manage a game according to your opposition. This is all rugby knowledge, rugby education which isn't rocket science but that's what good coaching is. We've now gone backwards - there doesn't seem to be a "want" for the 15s side to be successful. Coaches need to be put in place, not just for the national side but as an investment in the provincial sides in order to accelerate players' learning in a short space of time so they can be competitive.

                            FS: There also need to be good coaches in the AIL, not just "someone from the men's thirds who'll just do it" - there needs to be a proper pathway. Some extra resources may be going into that, which will be good to see. The girls playing & training week-in, week-out need to get proper training and coaching at that level.

                            DOB: Is it time for the women to call their own shots within the IRFU, to make an "independent republic of women's rugby"?

                            FS: We were there a long time ago, we were once outside the IRFU and it's important to be inside the IRFU now. We have a performance director in Anthony Eddy, who is below David Nucifora.

                            LC: The performance director for the women's game needs to be aspirational for all strands of the women's game.

                            FS: We need parity of esteem for the 7s and the 15s, parity of resources, parity of excellence. Our 7s players finished top 4 in a world series event - that's aspirational but it's achievable. We did also have a 15s side that finished top 4 in a world event so we can do it ...

                            DOB: Why is it important that Irish women's rugby succeeds?

                            JM: People care about it. You see record capacity in the home games - Irish people like seeing Irish teams do well.

                            FS: It's also for young players who need to see role models, who need to want to do this - e.g. she wanted to be a camogie player growing up, because that's what she saw. But if they keep seeing Ireland getting trounced, there's only so much that girls will want to do this. It needs success because otherwise the product dwindles away. Rugby is the sport for everybody, of every size & shape, and people can aspire to be the best that they can be. But they need to see "this is what elite is".
                            Tis but a scratch.

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Originally posted by mr chips View Post
                              Very disappointing tournament for the women, encapsulated by today's loss to the Welsh and ending up fifth (Italy finished second after beating France today 31-12). The post-match studio discussion on RTE was extremely honest and insightful - while Daire O'Briain just seemed to want to blame the players (his opening line was "Sugarcoating time or telling the truth time?"), by contrast the panellists Fiona Steed, Jenny Murphy and Lynne Cantwell provided excellent insight into how the 15s women's game has been let down in recent years by the IRFU and how poorly underpinned it is here.
                              O Briain is a complete gob****e and dont know why he is persisted with presenting rugby coverage when he is so condescending as well. Fiona etc all played and still involved in game at grassroots level. Fiona's daughters playing and she does plenty to promote the work being done in Nenagh, Bruff at underage especially.
                              Lynne Cantwell is based in London now and has done some work with London Irish ladies. and still knows plenty on whats wrong with game here

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Originally posted by mr chips View Post
                                I thought it was worth putting up a summary of the key points made in that discussion - I'll freely admit that while I'm interested in and supportive of the women's game, I lack more detailed knowledge about the barriers it has been facing and IMO this gave some real insight into a few of the issues that have to be overcome.

                                Fiona Steed: We won the Women's 6N in 2013 and 2015, and also made it to the Women's RWC semi-final in 2014. We've had 2 years of "transition" and hoped to see improvement, but have gone from beating Wales 35-12 last year to this result (24-5 loss).

                                Lynne Cantwell: Players shouldn't bear full responsibility for where we're at and for this campaign - coaches need to take responsibility for their tenure. We finished 8th in the last WRWC, 4th in the one before that (better than the men have managed thus far!). While each country has its own plan for aspiring at a high performance level, we need to understand what Ireland's plan is. Irish sport is competitive at 15s and at 7s, but 15s is currently not being supported and driven the way 7s is even though 15s is a sport in which we can compete for world medals. We've gone from 4th in the world to possibly not qualifying for the next WRWC.

                                Jenny Murphy: Players give everything to the game - they put life, career, family on hold for this. The union needs to step up and put proper pathways in place. Why is there no U20s team or underage structure, unlike every other team in the Women's 6N? The gap from club to international is too wide - players can't be expected to just make that leap. The IRFU have exposed the players to the criticism they are now facing.

                                FS: Some of the responsibility is on the players as some of it is about basic errors - handling, decision-making. But e.g. regarding a malfunctioning setpiece, we had a hooker who before this tournament had never played a competitive 15-a-side game at hooker. There was no 2nd row on the bench today, nor for the entire tournament so when one of our locks went off injured early in the game, one of our most effective back rows Ciara Griffin had to move into the second row. For all the good initiatives that are happening at grassroots (Aldi Play Rugby, Give It A Try programme) which are increasing participation rates at a lower level and which will eventually bear fruit, the pace of change is too slow and it's not acceptable to have to suffer this while waiting for those small positives to yield results.

                                DOB: Let's get back to being blunt about the players. Are the players the ones to take us forward or not?

                                LC: They are the best that we have, which is reflective of our system & our pipeline. We can change that in 2 years if there's true direction and focus, improving current players and bringing through more developed competition from below. There will naturally be some turnover anyway.

                                DOB: If any senior players are thinking of scattering, they'll be doing it after today.

                                JM: That's not a decision they'll have made because of this campaign - for any who do decide to bow out, it would have been decided beforehand and would be fair enough, as they've given so much to their country already. A lot of what we would call our senior players have less than 20 caps, unlike Italy/England/France. It's difficult going into a campaign with that lack of experienced heads. (In response to DOB) Yes she is angry - there is talent there and the players themselves will say they can do better, but the support needs to be there. The union needs to get behind it because it's not good enough any more.

                                FS: There is time to right this, for things to improve. There is some support for underage at provincial level, but will they take the next step and make the provincial series home & away? There's a need for good opposition and for high strength/highly physical games. Look at Bebhíonn Parsons, who is very talented and did very well despite not having played a club game before being capped as an international.

                                LC: Each country follows its own model, and Ireland have to decide which one we have to follow in order to map our success. Bebhíonn has come through a strong pathway in Connacht with good coaching. LC doesn't normally want to reference her own era for fear of creating a "them & us" comparison, but in her era there was exceptional technical direction from Steve Abboud, who took Philip Doyle under his wing & used the team then to teach the girls a different style of rugby, similar to a French or Italian style. It was excellent coaching to try and read the game well, to understand the tactical decisions you make at different points on the pitch, provide the technical understanding you need to make those decisions and manage a game according to your opposition. This is all rugby knowledge, rugby education which isn't rocket science but that's what good coaching is. We've now gone backwards - there doesn't seem to be a "want" for the 15s side to be successful. Coaches need to be put in place, not just for the national side but as an investment in the provincial sides in order to accelerate players' learning in a short space of time so they can be competitive.

                                FS: There also need to be good coaches in the AIL, not just "someone from the men's thirds who'll just do it" - there needs to be a proper pathway. Some extra resources may be going into that, which will be good to see. The girls playing & training week-in, week-out need to get proper training and coaching at that level.

                                DOB: Is it time for the women to call their own shots within the IRFU, to make an "independent republic of women's rugby"?

                                FS: We were there a long time ago, we were once outside the IRFU and it's important to be inside the IRFU now. We have a performance director in Anthony Eddy, who is below David Nucifora.

                                LC: The performance director for the women's game needs to be aspirational for all strands of the women's game.

                                FS: We need parity of esteem for the 7s and the 15s, parity of resources, parity of excellence. Our 7s players finished top 4 in a world series event - that's aspirational but it's achievable. We did also have a 15s side that finished top 4 in a world event so we can do it ...

                                DOB: Why is it important that Irish women's rugby succeeds?

                                JM: People care about it. You see record capacity in the home games - Irish people like seeing Irish teams do well.

                                FS: It's also for young players who need to see role models, who need to want to do this - e.g. she wanted to be a camogie player growing up, because that's what she saw. But if they keep seeing Ireland getting trounced, there's only so much that girls will want to do this. It needs success because otherwise the product dwindles away. Rugby is the sport for everybody, of every size & shape, and people can aspire to be the best that they can be. But they need to see "this is what elite is".
                                God DOBs comments look even worse there than they were on TV.
                                Numbers playing needs to be improved to assist with age grade provincial teams.
                                Senior interpro series needs to expand to 6 games, home and away, for a start

                                Comment

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