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World Cup - The Lessons Learnt

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    #61
    Originally posted by TomsOnTheRoof View Post
    What I can't get my head around was the omission of Zebo. Apparently it was because Fitz (Who had a great game against Argentina) covered the centre but I thought the reason for having Madigan over Jackson was his versatility and ability to play 12. Surely having Madigan there would have allowed Joe to play one of Fitz/Zebo on the wing and leave the other on the bench.
    Spock, get off the internet and go fix the transporter..or she'll blow.
    Tic-Toc. POC and DOC. Stop the clock.

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      #62
      Originally posted by ormond lad View Post
      The provinces competing against each other clearly leads to wage inflation. The provinces wouldn't be paying the same amount. Theyd be paying more.

      They have a budget which they must stick to. Only change from the current system is some players will be earning more and some earning less. It will be based more on talent than it currently is.

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        #63
        Originally posted by dropkick View Post
        They have a budget which they must stick to. Only change from the current system is some players will be earning more and some earning less. It will be based more on talent than it currently is.
        That wouldn't be how it would work.
        The provinces being able to out bid and compete like that just isn't going to happen. Shouldn't happen as it just drives wages up and that isn't good in short or long term. It wouldn't be a good thing

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          #64
          Originally posted by ormond lad View Post
          That wouldn't be how it would work.
          The provinces being able to out bid and compete like that just isn't going to happen. Shouldn't happen as it just drives wages up and that isn't good in short or long term. It wouldn't be a good thing

          It can't drive wages up because the provinces can't give what they don't have. It isn't public money they're playing with.


          They would still have to balance the books like they are doing already. They couldn't just throw money at players because there would be less money for everyone else. If they did they would soon learn their lesson.


          IMO its counter intuitive. The best use of resources would be to spread the talent around. That way you have 4 provinces who are stronger overall and more likely to be successful which means prize money, higher attendances etc. A virtuous cycle would be created.

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            #65
            I like the idea of player swapping, perhaps they could introduce a moderated player swapping system, something along the lines of contracted (& estimated) value, swap like for like e.g. Munster swap 2nd rows for Leinster props, moderated by Nucifera & the appropriate committees, with contracted players being some way obliged to take up these opportunities ,in return for a relocation bonus, within the Irish provincial system. I could see something like that work very well, to spread talent around a bit to ensure Irish players are maximising their first team playing time with Irish provinces.
            Last edited by Daithi; 22-October-2015, 14:23.
            ____________________________________________
            Munster were great when they were Munster.

            alas they are just north munster now.......
            ____________________________________________

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              #66
              Originally posted by TomsOnTheRoof View Post
              What I can't get my head around was the omission of Zebo. Apparently it was because Fitz (Who had a great game against Argentina) covered the centre but I thought the reason for having Madigan over Jackson was his versatility and ability to play 12. Surely having Madigan there would have allowed Joe to play one of Fitz/Zebo on the wing and leave the other on the bench.
              Since madigan was the starting fly half, he's more likely to get targeted than any other player on the pitch, even his propensity to pass just before contact (jackson does this beautifully too) means he's more likely than any other back to need replacing. Jackson is the only other fly half available so the big problem is if both madigan and a centre go. Jackson's already on at 10 and none of Kearney, Kearney or bowe were set up to be able to more to 12 or 13 and allow zebo to wing or full back. If you were picking from a starting lineup knowing that bowe was out though and you'd to pick earls, fitz and zebo, I'd have fitz at 13 and earls on a wing preferably. Fitz is slightly bigger than earls in terms of the contact and earls has greater straight line pace in terms of finishing things off.
              The system is dead! Long live the process!

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                #67
                Originally posted by dropkick View Post
                It can't drive wages up because the provinces can't give what they don't have. It isn't public money they're playing with.
                Right, so it would lead to a smaller number of players being paid higher individual amounts.

                Comment


                  #68
                  Originally posted by Daithi View Post
                  I like the idea of player swapping, perhaps they could introduce a moderated player swapping system, something along the lines of contracted (& estimated) value, swap like for like e.g. Munster swap 2nd rows for Leinster props, moderated by Nucifera & the appropriate committees, with contracted players being obliged to take up these opportunities in return for a relation bonus within the Irish provincial system.
                  Yep - been thinking along those lines for ages. Leinster have lots of very promising backrows and props coming out their arses which could happily take some of the heat off ulster and munster, Leinster potentially need second rows if any of the younguns aren't up to scratch (not that any province has a surplus of them similar to munster three years back).

                  Schmidt and feek should tour the provinces regularly enforcing skills and patterns training so there's a uniform "ireland" playing style which avoids the leinster preference in terms of systems familiarity. The all blacks do this with all their s15 teams in terms of a common scrummaging style so they can swap components in and out.

                  I'd love to see nucifora try to work at the underage level by proxies that teach proper passing and running. A lot of the schools stuff is totally geared to winning by whatever method and it's totally stunting players later on. The basics are putting limits on what the national team can do. In attack we have plenty of things breaking down because some of your distributing players might be buried in a ruck so a prop or a second row might end up in the attacking line - if they could happily catch and release a decent pass while it's maybe not ideal in terms of pace or footwork, at least it keeps continuity going as opposed to having to take the contact and setting up a ruck in which time a fit opposition team will have their defence set.
                  The system is dead! Long live the process!

                  Comment


                    #69
                    There is loads of player moving going on already, where do people think Felix, Keatley, Conway, Coughlan etc come from? You can't however start forcing players to move where they don't want to
                    My computer thinks I'm gay
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                    When all the people do all day
                    Is stare into a phone

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                      #70
                      Originally posted by joconnell View Post
                      If you were picking from a starting lineup knowing that bowe was out though and you'd to pick earls, fitz and zebo, I'd have fitz at 13 and earls on a wing preferably. Fitz is slightly bigger than earls in terms of the contact and earls has greater straight line pace in terms of finishing things off.
                      I think this is right actually. With what we know now, and what the coach should have known last week, the far better selection would have been Earls & Bowe on the wings, Fitzgerald/Henshaw at 13/12 & Zebo on the bench imho.

                      Indeed If Js had also gone for Henderson at 6, ball carrier Ryan @5, and the far fresher McGrath over the half fit & jaded looking Healy at loosehead, Ireland would have had a much better chance of winning the game at the weekend imho. In fact I'd fancy them to have won it tbh.

                      And with SOB & Sexton likely to return for the semi versus Aus (who Scotland could push right to the wire in the qf), then it was game on for a place in the rwc final, & 80 minutes to ultimate glory. Pity.

                      A seriously good opportunity missed imho.
                      Last edited by Daithi; 22-October-2015, 14:46.
                      ____________________________________________
                      Munster were great when they were Munster.

                      alas they are just north munster now.......
                      ____________________________________________

                      Comment


                        #71
                        Originally posted by whimpersnap View Post
                        Right, so it would lead to a smaller number of players being paid higher individual amounts.

                        Depends on what the coaches want. If they want big squad then they won't be able to pay much for a player anyway. The market will balance things out.

                        Comment


                          #72
                          Originally posted by TomsOnTheRoof View Post
                          What I can't get my head around was the omission of Zebo. Apparently it was because Fitz (Who had a great game against Argentina) covered the centre but I thought the reason for having Madigan over Jackson was his versatility and ability to play 12. Surely having Madigan there would have allowed Joe to play one of Fitz/Zebo on the wing and leave the other on the bench.

                          Fitz didn't have a great game against Argentina. He was good in attack but you should check out his defense, it was terrible.

                          Comment


                            #73
                            I think you have far too much faith in players' willingness to accept less money.

                            Comment


                              #74
                              Originally posted by dropkick View Post
                              It can't drive wages up because the provinces can't give what they don't have. It isn't public money they're playing with.

                              They would still have to balance the books like they are doing already. They couldn't just throw money at players because there would be less money for everyone else. If they did they would soon learn their lesson.

                              IMO its counter intuitive. The best use of resources would be to spread the talent around. That way you have 4 provinces who are stronger overall and more likely to be successful which means prize money, higher attendances etc. A virtuous cycle would be created.
                              If provinces were able to compete against one another when theyre not currently wages would only go one way and that isn't down....

                              Originally posted by joconnell View Post
                              Yep - been thinking along those lines for ages. Leinster have lots of very promising backrows and props coming out their arses which could happily take some of the heat off ulster and munster, Leinster potentially need second rows if any of the younguns aren't up to scratch (not that any province has a surplus of them similar to munster three years back).

                              Schmidt and feek should tour the provinces regularly enforcing skills and patterns training so there's a uniform "ireland" playing style which avoids the leinster preference in terms of systems familiarity. The all blacks do this with all their s15 teams in terms of a common scrummaging style so they can swap components in and out.

                              I'd love to see nucifora try to work at the underage level by proxies that teach proper passing and running. A lot of the schools stuff is totally geared to winning by whatever method and it's totally stunting players later on. The basics are putting limits on what the national team can do. In attack we have plenty of things breaking down because some of your distributing players might be buried in a ruck so a prop or a second row might end up in the attacking line - if they could happily catch and release a decent pass while it's maybe not ideal in terms of pace or footwork, at least it keeps continuity going as opposed to having to take the contact and setting up a ruck in which time a fit opposition team will have their defence set.
                              Perhaps we should look at enforcing some sort of uniform playing style in certain aspects but will it happen?
                              Nearly all underage(not just schools) is totally geared towards winning by any means but when so many competitions are straight knock out what do you expect?

                              Comment


                                #75
                                Originally posted by ormond lad View Post
                                Perhaps we should look at enforcing some sort of uniform playing style in certain aspects but will it happen?
                                Nearly all underage(not just schools) is totally geared towards winning by any means but when so many competitions are straight knock out what do you expect?
                                Yep, I'd love to see that - any school would happily take a cup win consisting of nothing but 3-0 wins if it worked but in the greater scheme it's not really helping.
                                The system is dead! Long live the process!

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