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    #46
    Originally posted by dropkick View Post
    It would encourage movement and the best quality players would be more evenly spread out. As an example, Munster would be able to offer Tadhg Furlong a contract which would be greater than Leinster. A win win situation. Munster would be strengthened, Furlong would receive a high wage an Ireland would have another prop getting regular gametime.
    Well you sort of hit on it there. It'd inevitably lead to wage inflation which, because of how the budgets are managed, means less players in the long-run.

    Comment


      #47
      Originally posted by dropkick View Post
      It would encourage movement and the best quality players would be more evenly spread out. As an example, Munster would be able to offer Tadhg Furlong a contract which would be greater than Leinster. A win win situation. Munster would be strengthened, Furlong would receive a high wage an Ireland would have another prop getting regular gametime. Leinster could be compensated in some other way, plus he could always return to Leinster down the line. Now we have Munster signing NIQs while Furlong will be on bench duty for another few years. Its very inefficient and the IRFUs attempt to keep wages down is costing money overall. The more efficient the provinces are run the more all teams (including Ireland) will benefit.

      Likewise, Robin Copeland could move to Ulster, Luke Marshall to Munster, Robbie Henshaw to Leinster, Dan Leavy to Ulster and Connacht would have plenty of more options.

      On the other point, Eddie O'Sullivan has talked about the pressure from the IRFU to always play their strongest side. I don't see the need for the IRFU to be putting pressure on the coach because the coaches are highly driven to succeed already.
      As whimpersnap says it leads to wage inflation which helps nobody. Would it really encourage movement? It then has a knock on effect for future transfers etc

      Comment


        #48
        Originally posted by dropkick View Post
        It would encourage movement and the best quality players would be more evenly spread out. As an example, Munster would be able to offer Tadhg Furlong a contract which would be greater than Leinster. A win win situation. Munster would be strengthened, Furlong would receive a high wage an Ireland would have another prop getting regular gametime. Leinster could be compensated in some other way, plus he could always return to Leinster down the line. Now we have Munster signing NIQs while Furlong will be on bench duty for another few years. Its very inefficient and the IRFUs attempt to keep wages down is costing money overall. The more efficient the provinces are run the more all teams (including Ireland) will benefit.


        Likewise, Robin Copeland could move to Ulster, Luke Marshall to Munster, Robbie Henshaw to Leinster, Dan Leavy to Ulster and Connacht would have plenty of more options.


        On the other point, Eddie O'Sullivan has talked about the pressure from the IRFU to always play their strongest side. I don't see the need for the IRFU to be putting pressure on the coach because the coaches are highly driven to succeed already.
        Nuts to that. Munster first always. The other 3 can go to hell.
        Yorn desh born, der ritt de gitt der gue,
        Orn desh, dee born desh, de umn bork! bork! bork!

        Comment


          #49
          Originally posted by Rich123 View Post
          I think selection errors were made. Henderson was exhausted by all the heavy work he did and consequently his work in the loose was not eye-catching. I think Ryan should have started in the second-row, with Henderson at 6. Dave Kearney was outclassed by Imhoff and Cordero. Zebo is a better athlete and would have done better imo. His passing ability would also have been useful to have. Keith Earls' communication in defence seems to have been an issue. Would Fitzgerald or Cave have been better options at 13? Finally, I think it's pretty obvious that starting McGrath at loosehead would have been a better option
          I think too much has been made of Keith Earls communication (or possible lack of) in defence. Any kind of communication is difficult in a stadium full of 80,000 baying fans. In any case how much time is there for one guy to assess the situation and bark out orders to his fellow backs. No. Joe's troops are supposed to be superbly drilled and know the system backwards. That means they should all be able to read the defensive situation and do the job they are supposed to without having to take direction from their mates. Poor old Keet has been singled out unfairly here and scapegoated. It's not all his fault if others miss their tackles. I know that rugby seems more complicated than it used to, but how complex does a defensive system have to be. Most are pretty closely based on the old adage that if you tackle your opposite number, or just the bloke closest to to you if he has the ball, and you have a couple of covering players cornerflagging behind the defensive line, you can't go all that far wrong. I believe that the hyperanalysis of these situations we read in Ire.42 etc.. is way over the top and often defenders are just beaten by the opposition's speed of passing, footwork and superior gas.
          Erse end of nowhere

          Comment


            #50
            RANKING Of Ireland pPlayers after their exit

            http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugb...-34127258.html

            1 Robbie Henshaw




            Returned from hamstring problem to play against Italy and took the France game by the scruff of the neck, putting in a phenomenal display. Consistently one of Ireland's most frequent and effective tacklers and carriers, his importance to the team is only growing. Has emerged as a leader. Age in 2019: 26


            2 Rory Best


            Showed his importance to the team time and time again, executing his primary role out of touch brilliantly while also being an effective force at the breakdown. Brilliant against France, he couldn't be blamed against Argentina. Deserved better.


            Age in 2019: 37




            3 Peter O'Mahony


            You don't appreciate what you have until it's gone. O'Mahony so often set the tone for Ireland with his aggression and work rate and was badly missed. A fundamental part of this team and its leadership group. An Ireland captain in the making, if he can stay fit.


            Age in 2019: 30


            4 Jamie Heaslip






            Made more tackles than any other Irish player and only Sean O'Brien carried the ball more frequently. Reserved his best performance for Argentina.


            Age in 2019: 35


            5 Paul O'Connell


            The captain hauled his team back from the brink against Italy and then led them into a ferocious performance against France. For all of the players lost that day, the Munster legend's absence left a hole that nobody could fill.


            Age in 2019: 39


            6 Iain Henderson


            Argentina targeted the big Ulster man and his lack of impact in Ireland's biggest game took away some of the sheen of his earlier performances. Like Henshaw, will be pillar of this team.


            Age in 2019: 27

            Comment


              #51
              I wouldn't rank Hensaw number 1. Although talented, he was bad against Argentina. He has to learn to pass better especially off his left hand.


              Originally posted by whimpersnap View Post
              Well you sort of hit on it there. It'd inevitably lead to wage inflation which, because of how the budgets are managed, means less players in the long-run.

              There couldn't be wage inflation because theres only so much money that each squad can spend on wages.


              To use the Furlong example again, Munster would pay him higher wages but his inclusion automatically relegates some other players down the pecking order and the further a player is down there then the less you need to pay them as they won't play as often.


              The provinces would still be paying the same wages, only difference is they would be paying it to different players. Talent would be just taking the place of the less talented.


              It would enable younger players get more games because there would be more opportunities, teams would take more chances on youth and the act of offering a player more money means the player is less likely to be kept on the bench.


              Actually it could also be the reason why so many players move to England or France rather than to another Irish province.

              Comment


                #52
                Originally posted by dropkick View Post
                There couldn't be wage inflation because theres only so much money that each squad can spend on wages.


                To use the Furlong example again, Munster would pay him higher wages but his inclusion automatically relegates some other players down the pecking order and the further a player is down there then the less you need to pay them as they won't play as often.
                But players aren't paid by the game. They're paid what they are able to negotiate. If you have two provinces involved in an auction over players, those individuals will end up being paid more money, and you are very unlikely to recoup that money by paying your existing players less.

                For instance, say Furlong is subject to a battle between Leinster and Munster, and ends up signing for Munster with a 50k increase over what either was initially prepared to pay. That pushes the Munster second-choice TH down - it'll be John Ryan by then I assume - but you won't be able to recoup that 50k by offering him a smaller contract. The result is that, assuming you do need at least three senior THs, you're just paying more and will need to increase the budget or make cuts elsewhere.

                Comment


                  #53
                  Swapping players is all very well, but I'm quite certain that we will be facing a greater exodus (quality & quantity) and that will have to be taken into account.

                  Comment


                    #54
                    Originally posted by Spiffy View Post
                    I think too much has been made of Keith Earls communication (or possible lack of) in defence. Any kind of communication is difficult in a stadium full of 80,000 baying fans. In any case how much time is there for one guy to assess the situation and bark out orders to his fellow backs. No. Joe's troops are supposed to be superbly drilled and know the system backwards. That means they should all be able to read the defensive situation and do the job they are supposed to without having to take direction from their mates. Poor old Keet has been singled out unfairly here and scapegoated. It's not all his fault if others miss their tackles. I know that rugby seems more complicated than it used to, but how complex does a defensive system have to be. Most are pretty closely based on the old adage that if you tackle your opposite number, or just the bloke closest to to you if he has the ball, and you have a couple of covering players cornerflagging behind the defensive line, you can't go all that far wrong. I believe that the hyperanalysis of these situations we read in Ire.42 etc.. is way over the top and often defenders are just beaten by the opposition's speed of passing, footwork and superior gas.
                    An excellent point. One can either have "All hail the LeaderSystem!", or, "Make the call", but you can't claim it's all about the system AND he should be making it up as we go along based on what we see.

                    Thing is, those trying to dump on Earls are. All the more so that the actions of the Kearneys, supposedly on his absence of a call, make no sense whatsoever in any system. They look, in fact, more like individual brain-fups when those drilled in a system suddenly see that system isn't working and don't know what to do any more.
                    Ceterum censeo INM irrumandum esse.

                    Comment


                      #55
                      On Murray: I actually think he has gone backwards under the current management. He no longer looks for the half break and his sniping, which previously had been a big part of his game, has become less and less frequent. He now looks to kick more often than not which is a pity and whilst I can understand the need for a strong kicking game it is not the be all and end all. Murray is a beautiful SH, in the traditional Aussie mould, and needs to be given the licence to play, along with the rest of the team. On Keith: Earls was always going to be scapegoated for any poor perfomance within the backline. The fact that he's our top try scorer at the RWC is irrelevant to most. People see what they want to see and not what's in front of them. Keith cannot force others to make their tackles, he can't make breaks if we don't have the ball and he sure as hell can't score when our backline is incapable of going beyond three phases. Keith's biggest failing is a simple one, he plays for the wrong team. Unfortunately provincialism has led a fairly myopic outlook, this is pretty glaring when you have one of our best performing backs being scapegoated for others missed tackles (Which once again seems to have gone completely under the radar despite it being an ever present problem among certain individuals) and inability to kick for touch. The Management: Without sounding like a broken record Kiss needs to be scrapped. He's a dinosaur and his "system", a system which seems to dictate that you give up the gainline to the opposition, has cost us more times than I care to count. Joe needs to be more trusting of his players whether they have worked with him previously or not. We have the capabilities to play expansively, as illustrated by our provincial sides, and we need to give the team the grace to make mistakes and learn from them. And yes, this means offloads. Joe also needs to start picking on form, Healy over McGrath was nonsensical to say the least and Zebo's omission was fairly damning. Finally, the pack seemed to have regressed under Easterby. Plumbtree was a massive loss and the failing of some of our pack to impose their physicality on games is costing us.

                      Comment


                        #56
                        Originally posted by Thomond78 View Post
                        An excellent point. One can either have "All hail the LeaderSystem!", or, "Make the call", but you can't claim it's all about the system AND he should be making it up as we go along based on what we see.

                        Thing is, those trying to dump on Earls are. All the more so that the actions of the Kearneys, supposedly on his absence of a call, make no sense whatsoever in any system. They look, in fact, more like individual brain-fups when those drilled in a system suddenly see that system isn't working and don't know what to do any more.
                        it all shows what a loss Andrew Trimble turned out to be. picking players on warm up form is fine for the rwc 31 man squad, but not for the crucial tests imho. Either Luke Fitz or Zebo would have been better starters, & Trimble should have gone out instead of Payne, with Luke F & Cave used centre cover thereafter. that was a mistake the coach needs to learn from
                        i.e. no issue bringing a (known) limited player (e.g. Kearney) on good form in the warm ups, but picking him for the big tests based on this previous form was a grevious selection error by the coach.

                        p.s. And the Argies spotted this selected weakness on the wing and exploited it ruthlessly
                        Last edited by Daithi; 22-October-2015, 11:49.
                        ____________________________________________
                        Munster were great when they were Munster.

                        alas they are just north munster now.......
                        ____________________________________________

                        Comment


                          #57
                          What I can't get my head around was the omission of Zebo. Apparently it was because Fitz (Who had a great game against Argentina) covered the centre but I thought the reason for having Madigan over Jackson was his versatility and ability to play 12. Surely having Madigan there would have allowed Joe to play one of Fitz/Zebo on the wing and leave the other on the bench.

                          Comment


                            #58
                            Originally posted by whimpersnap View Post
                            But players aren't paid by the game. They're paid what they are able to negotiate. If you have two provinces involved in an auction over players, those individuals will end up being paid more money, and you are very unlikely to recoup that money by paying your existing players less.

                            For instance, say Furlong is subject to a battle between Leinster and Munster, and ends up signing for Munster with a 50k increase over what either was initially prepared to pay. That pushes the Munster second-choice TH down - it'll be John Ryan by then I assume - but you won't be able to recoup that 50k by offering him a smaller contract. The result is that, assuming you do need at least three senior THs, you're just paying more and will need to increase the budget or make cuts elsewhere.

                            Thats a different issue. That depends on when you sign a player, any player. As things stand now with Munsters current injuries they have to spend more money anyway on a Uruguay prop and maybe extend Bothas contract. If Furlong came now instead of the Uruguay prop, Leinster would save his wages because they've Moore, Ross and Burke-Flynn in the squad. If they signed him in the second half of the season which is the normal time then they could negotiate with other players.


                            At the end of the day its about creating options for the provinces. They can sign who they like and its up to the coach to make a judgement. I'm sure Foley wouldn't mind signing Furlong at the expense of a winger.

                            Comment


                              #59
                              Is there no AIL tight head that could come in to the setup? Surely our best option can't be a prop from Uruguay.

                              Comment


                                #60
                                Originally posted by dropkick View Post
                                There couldn't be wage inflation because theres only so much money that each squad can spend on wages.

                                To use the Furlong example again, Munster would pay him higher wages but his inclusion automatically relegates some other players down the pecking order and the further a player is down there then the less you need to pay them as they won't play as often.

                                The provinces would still be paying the same wages, only difference is they would be paying it to different players. Talent would be just taking the place of the less talented.

                                It would enable younger players get more games because there would be more opportunities, teams would take more chances on youth and the act of offering a player more money means the player is less likely to be kept on the bench.

                                Actually it could also be the reason why so many players move to England or France rather than to another Irish province.
                                The provinces competing against each other clearly leads to wage inflation. The provinces wouldn't be paying the same amount. Theyd be paying more.

                                Originally posted by Viigand View Post
                                Is there no AIL tight head that could come in to the setup? Surely our best option can't be a prop from Uruguay.
                                Like who? There is academy props as well that will be looked at.... but some mightn't be ready....

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