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World Cup - The Lessons Learnt

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    #31
    Originally posted by Captain Average View Post
    Something that has puzzled me for a long time needs to be addressed.
    The thought that the flyhalf MUST be our kicker. It's holding us back. I've seen Conor Murray kick for Garryowen many a time and he was pretty damn good.
    I'm sure Paddy Jackson kicks excellently for his club too, but that's not a reliable indicator for the sort of percentages you need to win international games.

    That's not to say he wouldn't make a very good place-kicking 9, but I don't quite see the logic of trying to develop him as one in his mid-twenties. He's a Rolls Royce of a player - I'd rather let him continue becoming the best 9 in the world.

    Comment


      #32
      Originally posted by Cowboy View Post
      Reduce the hype. Simple as that really, make them mere mortals again instead of deifying all and sundry involved in pro rugby from the blue and red camps.

      A certain ruptured hamstring and its media mushroom cloud looked at odds with the man who suffered it. Radio shows falling over themselves to tell players and coaches how great they are and how invincible they are! Fawning hushed tones befall all interviewees instead of asking the hard questions, or asking another high priest of 'the system' to expand on his opining about why our defence was so lacklustre whilst he got the crosshairs on one or two lads.

      Keep the whole bandwagon on the ground, there's less chances of self inflicted bumps. Thanks for posting that article Miguel! it was along the lines of what I was thinking during the video of Paulie waiting to leave with his crutches.
      The problem is the hype is a huge part of rugby's appeal in this country and arguably dialling that down would reduce the game's appeal. A lot of it is the cushy coverage it's always received from the ruling class, but up until the likes of the42 and Whiff of Cordite came along and started talking about it as an actual game, as a nation we didn't know how to talk about rugby without sticking words like 'heroic' or 'giant' or whatever into it. People actually do swallow this ****, literally in the case of Guinness.

      Comment


        #33
        Originally posted by Kevin77 View Post
        We are a very good side. We were however robbed of most of our key players. The IRFU have done an excellent job since professionalism to improve the number of players feeding into the provinces and hence the national team. They’ve appointed the best coaches they can. We currently have the best coach we can.

        The All Blacks exited the World Cup in 2007 at the same stage as we just have and did not sack their coaching team. They decided to harness the lessons learnt. Trust that they had the right people in place and build for 2011. I firmly believe we should do the same. Schmidt is without a doubt the right man…however we need him to feel the same way about us.

        Personally I think it’s about refining and tweaking some of the existing structures which I believe are very good (and are actually very close to the Kiwi model which we all know works very well);

        - Better distribution of playing resources throughout provinces. This might not be popular, but clearing out backlogs of players in certain positions will help the national team. The counter-argument has been that why should a province suffer for developing their own talent however if a third choice young loosehead prop moves, it opens up an opportunity for the younger props stuck in the backlog to get experience earlier…something that seems to happen more in Super Rugby.

        - Continue to limit the number of foreign imports. Keep them to the high quality only. Journeymen should not be encouraged and I think the reduction in numbers has been beneficial. Ian Madigan is a perfect example of why we need to limit the numbers. Leinster’s season would not have been significantly worse without Gopperth, however Madigan would almost certainly have played a lot more in the big games at 10.

        - Somehow get more game time away to the Southern Hemisphere teams. Take our beatings. Learn our lessons.

        Thoughts?
        How do you get players to move who don't want to? At what stage do we insist a player moves?
        I don't think limiting foreign imports to just "high quality" will work. What is your definition of "high quality"?
        How do you propose getting more games against Southern Hemisphere sides especially away?

        Originally posted by dropkick View Post
        Some things I'd like to see done.

        - Encourage reserves in other provinces to move around more. In NZ or Oz theres no such thing as stockpiling players. If a team has more than one top quality player in a position, one of them will be encouraged to move. In Australia for example, their 4 best opensides are playing for 4 different teams. In Ireland 5 or the 6 world cup squad props are from Leinster.

        There are a number of ways to do this. I'd prefer to let the provinces bid for each others players. This would encourage the players to move around and you would end up with a more even spread of the quality. Leinster fans might object and say it would discourage other provinces from developing their own players. Well a solution to that would be to reward the provinces who develop players and/or have a budget earmarked for player development so the provinces who have to spend a certain amount on development. It wouldn't make wages rise either because they have a wage cap as it is. It would also encourage market fluidity.

        - Bring in top quality coaches from abroad to coach our own coaches. Thats what Argentina did! Graham Henry, Dave Rennie, Jamie Joseph and more were invited to Argentina to help them. Look at how NZ play and the Chiefs (Rennie) and Highlanders (Joseph) and look at the transformation in how Argentina play from 4 years ago. Watching the Highlanders this year was like watching a different sport at times.

        - The IRFU need to stop demanding the strongest side has to play every game and should relax their performance targets. Its counter productive and sounds like an accountant trying to run a sports team. They should stay out of the playing side of things and let the coach have some space for experimenting. Sometimes its better to knock down a house and rebuild rather than keep adding extensions. Once again we can take Argentina as an example. They decided to change and knew the risks but its now paing off. In fact the coach should be expected to experiment because its like an investment for the future, and it doesn't mean results will automatically suffer. I don't mind statistics being used but not at the expense of common sense.
        I don't see how allowing provinces outbid each other is in anyway beneficial to irish rugby. We've already have plenty of top coaches from elsewhere brought in and coaching our coaches. That already happens and is happening.
        By how would you relax the performance targets?

        Originally posted by Cowboy View Post
        Reduce the hype. Simple as that really, make them mere mortals again instead of deifying all and sundry involved in pro rugby from the blue and red camps.

        A certain ruptured hamstring and its media mushroom cloud looked at odds with the man who suffered it. Radio shows falling over themselves to tell players and coaches how great they are and how invincible they are! Fawning hushed tones befall all interviewees instead of asking the hard questions, or asking another high priest of 'the system' to expand on his opining about why our defence was so lacklustre whilst he got the crosshairs on one or two lads.

        Keep the whole bandwagon on the ground, there's less chances of self inflicted bumps. Thanks for posting that article Miguel! it was along the lines of what I was thinking during the video of Paulie waiting to leave with his crutches.
        How do you "reduce the hype"?

        Comment


          #34
          Originally posted by whimpersnap View Post
          The problem is the hype is a huge part of rugby's appeal in this country and arguably dialling that down would reduce the game's appeal. A lot of it is the cushy coverage it's always received from the ruling class, but up until the likes of the42 and Whiff of Cordite came along and started talking about it as an actual game, as a nation we didn't know how to talk about rugby without sticking words like 'heroic' or 'giant' or whatever into it. People actually do swallow this ****, literally in the case of Guinness.
          Fans can stop celebrating wins against Italy and Scotland as something to be cherished. Two pints and go home please.

          I'll never look at the 6 Nations again in the same light after this World Cup for at least 4 years
          I always knew Madigan was a closet Scrum Half. Ignore All things that suggest Continuity.

          Comment


            #35
            Originally posted by Cowboy View Post
            Reduce the hype. Simple as that really, make them mere mortals again instead of deifying all and sundry involved in pro rugby from the blue and red camps.

            A certain ruptured hamstring and its media mushroom cloud looked at odds with the man who suffered it. Radio shows falling over themselves to tell players and coaches how great they are and how invincible they are! Fawning hushed tones befall all interviewees instead of asking the hard questions, or asking another high priest of 'the system' to expand on his opining about why our defence was so lacklustre whilst he got the crosshairs on one or two lads.

            Keep the whole bandwagon on the ground, there's less chances of self inflicted bumps. Thanks for posting that article Miguel! it was along the lines of what I was thinking during the video of Paulie waiting to leave with his crutches.


            I think that's about the most accurate description of one of our biggest problems. We lost focus on the task of Argentina, We have become like the English in many ways, who spoke about winning a World Cup without acknowledging the obvious problems they would have, like a very difficult pool, unsure of their team, average backrow.

            We lost all of the world class players we had, and still talked about being in a semi final before a tackle was missed.

            Comment


              #36
              Lessons learnt - 1. The 13 controls the whole backline defence and determines whether the wingers and/or full back are able to tackle or not.
              2. Jared Payne was not the limited player that everyone was saying he was before the tournament, he was actually a vital component and the whole team crumbled without him.

              Comment


                #37
                I don't care what anyone says, squad selection and team selection is biased and joe is picking players on criteria other than form, and it's predominatly leinster players. For the third best province in the league last season they were grossly over represented.

                He needs to bring in a number of players for the next camp and give them a fair chance. Players like

                CJ stander
                Mccloskey
                Denis Buckley
                Conway
                Paddy Jackson

                And players need squad time sooner rather than later with a view to the next world cup like
                Jack o donoghue
                James cronin


                And most importantly he needs to pick a captain that can lead, and that isnt heaslip

                Comment


                  #38
                  Originally posted by whimpersnap View Post
                  I'm sure Paddy Jackson kicks excellently for his club too, but that's not a reliable indicator for the sort of percentages you need to win international games.

                  That's not to say he wouldn't make a very good place-kicking 9, but I don't quite see the logic of trying to develop him as one in his mid-twenties. He's a Rolls Royce of a player - I'd rather let him continue becoming the best 9 in the world.
                  I'm not sure Murray is. At his best he is great, and has played some tremendous games for Ireland, but he has been nothing special at the RWC at all and I think he's gone off the boil a bit. We love to talk up our own Irish players ( and Murray is one of our best), but I sometimes think we tend to overrate them in the grand scheme of things. He is not all that consistent, and consistency is the mark of a top player. There have been several better scrum halves in this RWC, including a couple from Tier II countries.
                  Erse end of nowhere

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by Spiffy View Post
                    I'm not sure Murray is. At his best he is great, and has played some tremendous games for Ireland, but he has been nothing special at the RWC at all and I think he's gone off the boil a bit. We love to talk up our own Irish players ( and Murray is one of our best), but I sometimes think we tend to overrate them in the grand scheme of things. He is not all that consistent, and consistency is the mark of a top player. There have been several better scrum halves in this RWC, including a couple from Tier II countries.
                    Well he is twice as good as any scrum half playing anywhere else in Ireland, so I suppose we will just have to lump him. When he is struggling to pick axe the ball out of a breakdown that is being obliterated it is hardly surprising he doesn't look like Aaron Smith playing against Namibia.

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by Spiffy View Post
                      I'm not sure Murray is. At his best he is great, and has played some tremendous games for Ireland, but he has been nothing special at the RWC at all and I think he's gone off the boil a bit. We love to talk up our own Irish players ( and Murray is one of our best), but I sometimes think we tend to overrate them in the grand scheme of things. He is not all that consistent, and consistency is the mark of a top player. There have been several better scrum halves in this RWC, including a couple from Tier II countries.
                      He hasn't had a great World Cup but we only had one proper game and the whole team underperformed. Overall, for Ireland, he's been very consistent. He's not the finished article yet but he's well on the way.

                      Comment


                        #41
                        I think selection errors were made. Henderson was exhausted by all the heavy work he did and consequently his work in the loose was not eye-catching. I think Ryan should have started in the second-row, with Henderson at 6. Dave Kearney was outclassed by Imhoff and Cordero. Zebo is a better athlete and would have done better imo. His passing ability would also have been useful to have. Keith Earls' communication in defence seems to have been an issue. Would Fitzgerald or Cave have been better options at 13? Finally, I think it's pretty obvious that starting McGrath at loosehead would have been a better option

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Originally posted by whimpersnap View Post
                          The problem is the hype is a huge part of rugby's appeal in this country and arguably dialling that down would reduce the game's appeal. A lot of it is the cushy coverage it's always received from the ruling class, but up until the likes of the42 and Whiff of Cordite came along and started talking about it as an actual game, as a nation we didn't know how to talk about rugby without sticking words like 'heroic' or 'giant' or whatever into it. People actually do swallow this ****, literally in the case of Guinness.
                          Agree with Cowboy and you about a lot of the hype, but I think it's part of us, but I also think it's more complex than that. Have you forgotten the 1990s when the national team was dire, and coverage was certainly not complimentary? I certainly do - Ireland were almost a joke.

                          In my view, a factor is the that game has now completed a full transition from amateur to professional over two decades. Frankly, in the mid-1990s, I don't believe too many people predicted much success for the professional game in Ireland, and it wasn't until Ulster and Munster started showing there was a way in the Heineken Cup that this rugby movement began to take shape. And I don't think it was the "ruling class", whatever that means. In Ireland we had a ready-made "follow your province" constituency to follow "our" teams - based on the GAA county model - that definitely internalised the teams in our hearts and minds.

                          The momentum kept coming - Triple Crowns, Heineken Cups, and finally a Grand Slam. So, going into the 2011, there was understandable build-up, and another first - win over a SH team - seemed to confirm the team was still improving.

                          When the Kidney era ran out of steam, in stepped Joe and he rapidly seemed to get the ship righted, more genuine success followed. Until last Sunday that is. I think the country will quickly realise that our level has about been reached. 2011 wasn't a blip after all: it was an accurate measurement of our place in the world. Maybe we need to accept that now.

                          For me, O'Connell is symbolically the end of the "heroic" era of players - although he didn't play in the amateur era, he came from a tradition and club that had many of the values. With O'Connell's leaving, and the defeat on Sunday, I think Irish Rugby will enter the second phase of professionalism: no cadre of former amateur players, academies up and running, very professional coaching, conditioning and support systems, but with new realistic expectations. I think there will be less hype this time.

                          Speaking personally, I love the game and love following Munster, and can easily transfer that sentiment to the national team. I think in Ireland, (or maybe just Munster), there will always be a bit of wanting your local lads to be heroes. I'm not sure that's a bad thing.

                          So no. Not really about ruling classes. This loss to Argentina, unlike the others which were explained away (shocks, or we didn't show up), will be a clarion call to changes in Irish rugby. I'm certain of that. There are no more excuses, and there needs to be criticism now and throughout until we get real about our place in the rugby world, and what we propose to do about it.

                          Oh, and I think Ewan MacKenna should stick to Twitter. He writes more powerfully in 156 characters than in an unbalanced, inaccurate and repetitive article. Just my opinion.
                          "I don't believe in fairytales," O'Connell once told me, "even though it feels like I've been lucky enough to live through a few. However it ends, I'll feel lucky."
                          Donald McRae, Guardian Rugby, October 2015

                          Comment


                            #43
                            The ruling class in, for instance, the man who employs Brian O'Driscoll and paid for Big Sexy to come home.

                            Comment


                              #44
                              I've no idea what thread to put this into but I was interested to see how different both ourselves and Australia were compared to the teams who lined up in Auckland at RWC 2011 which was our peak result in the past 4 years. Some interesting changes!

                              IRELAND
                              15. Kearney
                              14. Bowe
                              13. BOD v Payne
                              12. D'Arcy v Henshaw
                              11. Earls v Kearney
                              10. Sexton
                              9. Reddan v Murray
                              8. Heaslip
                              7. O'Brien
                              6. Ferris v O'Mahony
                              5. O'Connell
                              4. O'Callaghan v Toner
                              3. Ross
                              2. Best
                              1. Healy

                              16. Cronin v Strauss
                              17. Court v McGrath/White
                              18. Ryan v Henderson
                              19. Leamy v Henry
                              20. Murray v Reddan
                              21. O'Gara v Madigan
                              22. Trimble v Fitzgerald

                              AUSTRALIA
                              15. Beale v Folau
                              14. O'Connor v Mitchell
                              13. Fainga'a v Kuridrani
                              12. McCabe v Giteau
                              11. Ashley-Cooper
                              10. Cooper v Foley
                              9. Genia
                              8. Samo v Pocock
                              7. McCalman v Hooper
                              6. Elsom v Fardy
                              5. Horwill v Douglas
                              4. Vickerman v Simmons
                              3. Alexander v Kepu
                              2. Polota-Nau v Moore
                              1. Kepu v Sio

                              16. Fainga'a v Polota-Nau
                              17. Slipper v Slipper/Holmes
                              18. Simmons v Mumm
                              19. Palu v McCalman
                              20. Higginbotham v Toomua
                              21. Burgess v Phipps
                              22. Mitchell v Beale

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Originally posted by ormond lad View Post
                                I don't see how allowing provinces outbid each other is in anyway beneficial to irish rugby. We've already have plenty of top coaches from elsewhere brought in and coaching our coaches. That already happens and is happening.
                                By how would you relax the performance targets?

                                It would encourage movement and the best quality players would be more evenly spread out. As an example, Munster would be able to offer Tadhg Furlong a contract which would be greater than Leinster. A win win situation. Munster would be strengthened, Furlong would receive a high wage an Ireland would have another prop getting regular gametime. Leinster could be compensated in some other way, plus he could always return to Leinster down the line. Now we have Munster signing NIQs while Furlong will be on bench duty for another few years. Its very inefficient and the IRFUs attempt to keep wages down is costing money overall. The more efficient the provinces are run the more all teams (including Ireland) will benefit.


                                Likewise, Robin Copeland could move to Ulster, Luke Marshall to Munster, Robbie Henshaw to Leinster, Dan Leavy to Ulster and Connacht would have plenty of more options.


                                On the other point, Eddie O'Sullivan has talked about the pressure from the IRFU to always play their strongest side. I don't see the need for the IRFU to be putting pressure on the coach because the coaches are highly driven to succeed already.

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