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World Cup - The Lessons Learnt

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    #16
    Originally posted by Daithi View Post
    Overall though, I wouldn't be too harsh on this Ireland coaching& management team. They've done well overall so far, with a slightly underwhelming world cup from an easy group draw but match scheduling was against them for a good quarter final performance, to be fair, and this has had a major impact imho. (Just ask JS, SOB, POC or the wonderful POM who all played just 1 week earlier)

    I've been thinking about that and com to the conclusion that it wasn't as unlucky as people think. Ireland and Wales were the two most injury hit squads and both play probably the most attritional rugby of all the top world cup teams. They're slightly different but just as attritional. Irelands attack is based on hitting ruck after ruck after ruck. I'd like to see the figures of rucks hit. And the France game was the fiirst big game Ireland played.


    Not only the injuries like TOD but there are numerous players in the squad coming back from injuries as well as the like of Moore and Trimble who missed out.


    Wales' game is based on physicality and collisions. They've avoided injuries over the years because their best players were playing for the regions but saving themselves. People wonder why Cardiff always underperformed... well theres one reason. Now with more playing outside of Wales, they won't be a sheltered as before.


    Ireland probably suffered as many injuries in the last 2 weeks as there was in the whole of the rugby championship. You can point out every individual injury and say it was unfortunate but looking at the big picture, it must be no coincidence that Ireland and Wales were the most injury hit sides and play the most attritional style of rugby.
    Last edited by dropkick; 21-October-2015, 14:48.

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      #17
      Originally posted by dropkick View Post
      I've been thinking about that and com to the conclusion that it wasn't as unlucky as people think. Ireland and Wales were the two most injury hit squads and both play probably the most attritional rugby of all the top world cup teams. They're slightly different but just as attritional. Irelands attack is based on hitting ruck after ruck after ruck. I'd like to see the figures of rucks hit. And the France game was the fiirst big game Ireland played.


      Not only the injuries like TOD but there are numerous players in the squad coming back from injuries as well as the like of Moore and Trimble who missed out.


      Wales' game is based on physicality and collisions. They've avoided injuries over the years because their best players were playing for the regions but saving themselves. People wonder why Cardiff always underperformed... well theres one reason.


      Ireland probably suffered as many injuries in the last 2 weeks as there was in the whole of the rugby championship. You can point out every individual injury and say it was unfortunate but looking at the big picture, it must be no coincidence that Ireland and Wales were the most injury hit sides and play the most attritional style of rugby.
      Ireland was one of the most injury hit sides? I don't see where you get the figures for this but the Argies were down their first three tightheads, a second row and a centre as a comparison. England had loads of injuries too.

      In short I don't believe your theory holds water but even assuming you are correct Joe chooses to play like that and thereby take that chance, a chance that backfired pretty spectacularly
      My computer thinks I'm gay
      What's the difference anyway
      When all the people do all day
      Is stare into a phone

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        #18
        Originally posted by sewa View Post
        Ireland was one of the most injury hit sides? I don't see where you get the figures for this but the Argies were down their first three tightheads, a second row and a centre as a comparison. England had loads of injuries too.

        In short I don't believe your theory holds water but even assuming you are correct Joe chooses to play like that and thereby take that chance, a chance that backfired pretty spectacularly

        At the end of the Argentina match Ireland were down the following due to injury. Pom, Poc, Payne, Bowe, Sexton, Trimble, Moore and TOD. Ruddock played one or two games in over half a year and Healy isn't yet match fit.


        Maybe the Argentinians tightheads are diving head first into too many breakdowns. ;)

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          #19
          Originally posted by dropkick View Post
          At the end of the Argentina match Ireland were down the following due to injury. Pom, Poc, Payne, Bowe, Sexton, Trimble, Moore and TOD. Ruddock played one or two games in over half a year and Healy isn't yet match fit.


          Maybe the Argentinians tightheads are diving head first into too many breakdowns. ;)
          I know which Irish players were injured. It says very little about how many injuries an average team can expect though, are we significantly over? Without seeing figures its hard to know.

          Central contracting is supposed to be for keeping players fit too. Does it ever actually serve that purpose effectively? That is why we don't let our players play with those nasty French clubs
          My computer thinks I'm gay
          What's the difference anyway
          When all the people do all day
          Is stare into a phone

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            #20
            Not sure about central contracts these days in terms of injury prevention. In Eddie O'Sullivans time there were much fewer injuries but players were less bulked up back then so not as many collisions.

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              #21
              Poor Declan Kidney.

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                #22
                Fed up reading about the Irish injuries. Injuries happen in rugby and you have to plan for them. Our squad is just not good enough in depth. Ireland can field a decent XV when all are fit, though there are still weaknesses. To advance in the RWC you need 31 top players all capable of challenging for a starting spot. Several players on the squad are not up to rugby at this level. Many forwards look underpowered and many backs lack pace compared with their counterparts of other countries. Throw in a few selection mistakes and poor tactics and the Ireland failure is hardly a surprise.
                Erse end of nowhere

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                  #23
                  I'm on the phone so can't link properly but for the stats gurus there's a whole heap of them in that link below regarding possession and points scored.

                  Which teams have turned their possession into points best at #RWC2015? https://t.co/z1CtD392YW #rugbyunited https://t.co/0lTNOcASpO
                  "Everything good about Ireland can be found in County Cork"....Lonely Planet Guide 2012

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                    #24
                    Murray Kinsella has a fair old cut off of Joe on the journal.ie
                    "Everything good about Ireland can be found in County Cork"....Lonely Planet Guide 2012

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                      #25
                      Where is the RWC on the IRFU's list of priorities?

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                        #26
                        This is rather no punches pulled...

                        Ewan MacKenna
                        Last updated at 1:00AM, October 21 2015

                        Homer: That little Timmy is a real hero.
                        Lisa: What makes him a hero Dad?
                        Homer: Well he fell down a well. And can’t get out.
                        The Simpsons
                        Four years ago, in the bowels of Eden Park in Auckland, Brian O’Driscoll skipped down the tunnel and announced that, because of the hype created around his team, they’d needed to deliver and had just done exactly that. Shortly afterwards, he was joined by Ronan O’Gara, who was reduced to tears by that same victory over Australia as he described the side as “great”.
                        Ten days ago, under the roof of the Millennium Stadium in Cardiff, Ian Madigan was the latest Irishman reduced to tears by a win, while around him, players and fans whooped, hugged and hollered at the result achieved against France.
                        What both games had in common was that they were no more than pool ties, there to essentially decide the seedings before the real rugby began in the knock-out stages. What both teams had in common was a belief that they’d made an important statement when ultimately it was small-time excitement before some big-time failure.
                        To an extent, those two sides built up a fair amount of goodwill, with a Grand Slam in 2009 and RBS Six Nations Championship victories in each of the last two seasons. But those accomplishments should also set the standards by which the players must be held to. On the smaller scale of European rugby — and even in the November Tests of a year ago — they’ve shown themselves to be hugely capable, but ask any player of such talent what his aspirations are and it’s to perform on the biggest stage.
                        Getting to the last eight of a tournament where there are nine teams playing to a relatively high level isn’t an accomplishment, it’s a probability. Getting to the final four was the aim this year and not getting there wasn’t a blip, it was a failure.
                        Yet, on Monday morning even the most basic ramble through Ireland’s media proved to be disheartening. Repeatedly pockmarking pages were words such as “heroic”, “brave” and “pride” to the extent that if had you been out the previous day, you’d be forgiven for thinking Joe Schmidt’s side had done what was expected of them.
                        On one occasion, a 43-20 annihilation was chalked down as a narrow loss but it yet again set the tone for a nation all too accepting of coming up short. It all led to the question is there a more mollycoddled, pampered and bubble-wrapped team in our sporting spectrum? Simply put, no.
                        This isn’t about kicking a group when they are down, but it is about being allowed to comment on an obvious reality without being accused of some form of bitter negativity. After all, you can’t have an important autopsy if you convince yourself that the corpse is alive and well. And with the national rugby team, it’s what we do so often as a country.
                        Just contrast the reaction to the World Cup performance with that for similar performances in other sports by other Irish sportspeople. Should an Irish soccer team limited by an abject system of player production fail to get past a technically superior Bosnia-Herzegovina side next month, will they be brave? Are amateur GAA players who fall well below their potential when it matters most talked of as heroes? And at next year’s Olympics, if Irish track and field athletes in what are truly global sports don’t make semi-finals, will the nation exude a similar pride?
                        Before the off in Cardiff at the weekend, there were hurdles placed before Ireland, but they shouldn’t be seen as excuses, rather challenges for top teams overcome. The injuries to Paul O’Connell, Peter O’Mahony and Jonny Sexton were cruel but others like Wales were flattened by bigger crises. The loss of Se├ín O’Brien hurt but punching a player in the gut resulting in suspension for the biggest game isn’t some cruel twist of fate. Meanwhile the idea that the French encounter took its toll is scraping the barrel for hindsight shows that Ireland came through the easiest group of the tournament and yet treated it as an achievement. What Ireland had was a far greater chance than any other European quarter-finalists, yet others outdid and outshone us.
                        That’s eight World Cups now and still no semi-final. And while early editions can be treated as a mediocre team simply not being good enough, that can’t be the case here. Instead, just like 2011, this was a massive choke. The lack of intensity for the opening try, the lack of tackling for the second try, forwards covering pace players out wide, the kicking game — all these elements showed a mental collapse much greater than the physical issues borne of a lack of depth.
                        By the opening exchanges of the second half, Ireland’s quality had them just three points back but with momentum going their way and the real possibility of an unlikely comeback, they choked all over again. What exactly is brave and heroic about that? And why exactly does that deserve a reaction of any pride?
                        This wasn’t the “Fields of Athenry” ringing around Gdansk as a ramshackle group were 4-0 down to perhaps the best international team to ever play the game. This was far more embarrassing; this was our hugely talented rugby team collapsing yet again when the safety net had been removed and it was time for them to step up and perform to their potential.
                        Marketing still says that this is a rugby country, maybe it’s about time we stopped believing the hype.
                        Yorn desh born, der ritt de gitt der gue,
                        Orn desh, dee born desh, de umn bork! bork! bork!

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                          #27
                          Lesson learnt hopefully is never ever throw a punch in a match when you have half the cameras in the known universe pointing at you. I can take injuries but rank stupidity is hard to accept.
                          Excellence is hard to keep quite - Sherrie Coale

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                            #28
                            Some things I'd like to see done.


                            - Encourage reserves in other provinces to move around more. In NZ or Oz theres no such thing as stockpiling players. If a team has more than one top quality player in a position, one of them will be encouraged to move. In Australia for example, their 4 best opensides are playing for 4 different teams. In Ireland 5 or the 6 world cup squad props are from Leinster.

                            There are a number of ways to do this. I'd prefer to let the provinces bid for each others players. This would encourage the players to move around and you would end up with a more even spread of the quality. Leinster fans might object and say it would discourage other provinces from developing their own players. Well a solution to that would be to reward the provinces who develop players and/or have a budget earmarked for player development so the provinces who have to spend a certain amount on development. It wouldn't make wages rise either because they have a wage cap as it is. It would also encourage market fluidity.


                            - Bring in top quality coaches from abroad to coach our own coaches. Thats what Argentina did! Graham Henry, Dave Rennie, Jamie Joseph and more were invited to Argentina to help them. Look at how NZ play and the Chiefs (Rennie) and Highlanders (Joseph) and look at the transformation in how Argentina play from 4 years ago. Watching the Highlanders this year was like watching a different sport at times.


                            - The IRFU need to stop demanding the strongest side has to play every game and should relax their performance targets. Its counter productive and sounds like an accountant trying to run a sports team. They should stay out of the playing side of things and let the coach have some space for experimenting. Sometimes its better to knock down a house and rebuild rather than keep adding extensions. Once again we can take Argentina as an example. They decided to change and knew the risks but its now paing off. In fact the coach should be expected to experiment because its like an investment for the future, and it doesn't mean results will automatically suffer. I don't mind statistics being used but not at the expense of common sense.

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                              #29
                              lessons learned ?, yes hopefully by Joe Schmidt. Great coach and attention to detail is reputedly second to none.
                              Pundits and fans alike , we all reckon we know best or can offer opinions where we went wrong in the world cup,hopefully Joe will address what he perceives as our shortcomings and his own and expand the squad and his coaching team if needed. Argentina brought in outsiders advisers in certain areas, cheika has ledesma helping out in scrum coaching.
                              Maybe a neutral eye is needed to point out a few things, who knows . All i can say is that i think Schmidt is the right man for the job and i reckon will do his best for irish rugby.
                              Still there's a light I hold before me
                              You're the measure of my dreams
                              The measure of my dreams.

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                                #30
                                Reduce the hype. Simple as that really, make them mere mortals again instead of deifying all and sundry involved in pro rugby from the blue and red camps.

                                A certain ruptured hamstring and its media mushroom cloud looked at odds with the man who suffered it. Radio shows falling over themselves to tell players and coaches how great they are and how invincible they are! Fawning hushed tones befall all interviewees instead of asking the hard questions, or asking another high priest of 'the system' to expand on his opining about why our defence was so lacklustre whilst he got the crosshairs on one or two lads.

                                Keep the whole bandwagon on the ground, there's less chances of self inflicted bumps. Thanks for posting that article Miguel! it was along the lines of what I was thinking during the video of Paulie waiting to leave with his crutches.
                                I am the million man.

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