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  • Clubman
    replied
    Originally posted by supiebrian View Post
    Having watched the second semi again today and having seen how a large part of Australia's chances evaporated with the effective nullifying of Pocock, the importance of having a "7" or indeed having a player (s) who can win you ball on the ground cannot be underestimated.

    From an Irish context and over the last number of years a combination of Wally, Best, BOD and even Darcy were used to enable us to win elusive ball on the ground. The question we are now faced with, baring in mind the respective physical condition and mileage 3 of these guys have on the clock is; who will do that job for us in the future and; whether we should/can actively one of our younger players to assume the role of the groundhog type at 7.

    A valid and indeed genuine question that must be answered is whether such an exercise can be achieved or whether you simply have to source someone who has the both the physical and technical attributes to be that type of 7?

    I'd love to hear people's views, however and from my own perspective I think it can be nurtured and so would love to see a POM, Dom Ryan or maybe even a Ruddock developed so as to become our version of Pocock/McCaw.




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    I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=-33.856065,151.205734
    I'd say it can be nurtured alright. The one proviso would be that the player himself wants it rather than being told he is going to be it.

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  • supiebrian
    replied
    Originally posted by HurlerOnDeDitch View Post
    I'm not sure about the balance in that backrow. Plenty of powerand ball carying ability but a bit 1 paced and no ball winners.

    I agree with Talking Sense (the shame:o) that we need a seven who can play the position, linking up play, supporting runners and winning ball on the ground.

    The current trio don't offer that and it showed last weekend.

    Another consideration is the lineout option. A backrow of 6. Ferris, 8. SOB and 7. McCaw does not offer much in that department.
    Having watched the second semi final again today, and having seen how a large part of Australia's chances evaporated with the effective nullifying of Pocock, the importance of having a specialist "7", or indeed having a player (s) who can win you ball on the ground cannot be underestimated.

    From an Irish context and over the last number of years a combination of; Wally, Best, BOD and even Darcy have been used to enable us to win that elusive ball on the ground. The question we are now faced with, and it is a particularly pertinent question baring in mind the respective physical condition and mileage on the clock of at least three of these guys, is who will do that job for us in the future and; whether we should/can actively mould one of our younger players to assume the role of the groundhog 7. And perhaps the even more pertinent question is whether such an exercise can be achieved at all, or whether you simply have to source someone who has both the physical and the technical attributes to be that type of groundhog 7?

    I'd love to hear people's views, however and from my own perspective I think it can be nurtured and so would love to see the likes of POM or Dom Ryan being developed so as to become our version of Pocock/McCaw.






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    I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=-33.856065,151.205734
    Last edited by supiebrian; 17-October-2011, 12:50.

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  • Dowlinz
    replied
    Wally showed no signs of slowing down up to now and is off the back of a fantastic season. He deserves the chance to prove hes still our best 7, just as the young lads deserve the chance to prove they can surpass him. Its all about chances for everyone at this stage although its important to give the shirt to our best player, I don't think exercises as with Sexton of giving a young player the shirt when he's clearly not deserving of it and has a better player in reserve constantly showing him up has done him any favours.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Blackness
    replied
    Originally posted by Red Hand Hero View Post
    Have stayed away from t'internet for a couple of days due to a mixture of a hefty weekend of drinking coupled with some calamitous results neither of which would have helped with coherent posting. I should also say I haven't performed due dilligence and read all posts but what can one do.

    The way I see it we were beaten by a better team on the day who if we played ten times I think we'd probably beat them in 6. Just like Ireland out-fought and out-thought the Aussie's Gatland and Edwards out-thunked DK and Kiss and got the result in the end. In the cold light of day, and despite the exit, it was Ireland's most successful world cup ever. I don't know if that says more about our World Cup 'form' but we beat Australia in the SH for the first time in a generation, a team that could conceivably go on to lift the RWC at this point.

    For Ireland I think we are at a very important juncture. I don't expect that we will see the swinging axe fall until after the 6N, though I would hope some exceptional form from some of the young pretenders might lead to their inclusions if they are tete a tete with guys who should be coming to the end of their international careers.

    That said there has to be some acknowledgement from the coaching staff that certain players need, or will need in the next 12-18 months, replacing.

    Murphy will rightly now be out of contention unless there is some sort of nuclear strike on our resources. D'Arcy has shown little at international level of the last 12 months to suggest he should remain there and the issue of two small guys in the midfield was highlighted to big effect on Saturday. Much will probably depend on BOD#'s future as much as anything else, will he continue to defend and attack at 13 or is it time to move one in? Spence could IMO be an interesting addition to the 12 jersey because if nothing else he's one strong fecker. Him and possibly Whitten/Downey aside Ireland don't have too many big men in the midfield. Time also has to be called on O'Gara just as it was on Humphreys post 2003. Its not that O'Gara doesn't still have something to offer but Sexton, like O'Gara did 8 years ago, needs time to settle without O'Gara overshadowing him. He will not learn to close out games or manage them more effectively if O'Gara is simply sprung from the bench.

    Up front you'd have to hope that Cronin gets a good run with Leinster and starts putting pressure on Best for the 2 jersey because Flannery does not look like he's going to make it back the poor fella. Cullen has to be cut loose now, he has a future for Leinster in the short to medium term same as O'Kelly did but internationally not so much. Same for O'Callaghan IMO, he didn't have a bad world cup by any standards and worked his arse ofagainst Australia and Italy but I would like to see the dynamism of Ryan or Touhy added to the mix. Backrow will largely remain unchanged but would also like to see someone from the province's putting their hand up as a genuine openside option. Would still welcome Wallace back provided the injury hasn't affected his pace/power.

    What really does need looked at however is our front row. Feek whilst a short term fixer has to be also seen as a LT developer as well, the question is can he combine his role as a Leinster scrum doctor when the other provinces need someone like him as well. Ideally he'd be working a day a week with each of the provinces moving forward. Unfortunately that is a bit too long sighted by the IRFU i fear.

    6N Opener-

    15-Kearney, 14-Bowe, 13-BOD, 12-Spence, 11-Trimble, 10-Sexton, 9-Murray, 8-O'Brien, 7-AN Other, 6-Ferris, 5-POC, 4-Ryan, 3-Ross, 2-Best, 1-Healy,

    Cronin, Court, Touhy, Heaslip, Reddan, O'Gara, Earls
    +1 to almost everything you have said there..... except Wallace.

    A truly world class footballer, but even if he recovers fully from the injury to the same form he was in, he is still getting on in years, and Ireland need to start taking more difficult decisions and letting older players go before they decide to retire themselves to give the chance for the younger blood to come in and learn their trade in the real world of international rugby, it's the only way they will improve and consequently the only way Ireland will move on from being nearly-made-it's.

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  • the plastic paddy
    replied
    Originally posted by Grandpasimpson View Post
    He got it along with Mafi and Warwick!
    And Chambers so I have heard!

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  • Grandpasimpson
    replied
    Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post
    When did McCaw's Irish qualification come through?
    He got it along with Mafi and Warwick!

    Leave a comment:


  • the plastic paddy
    replied
    Originally posted by HurlerOnDeDitch View Post
    I'm not sure about the balance in that backrow. Plenty of powerand ball carying ability but a bit 1 paced and no ball winners.

    I agree with Talking Sense (the shame:o) that we need a seven who can play the position, linking up play, supporting runners and winning ball on the ground.

    The current trio don't offer that and it showed last weekend.

    Another consideration is the lineout option. A backrow of 6. Ferris, 8. SOB and 7. McCaw does not offer much in that department.
    When did McCaw's Irish qualification come through?

    Leave a comment:


  • Grandpasimpson
    replied
    Originally posted by Thomond78 View Post
    There you go again, with those facts of yours. Tsk.
    I know, i really should know better at this stage than to be quoting facts

    Leave a comment:


  • HurlerOnDeDitch
    replied
    Originally posted by supiebrian View Post
    In terms of Ferris, I think it simply boils down to when he is fit and is able to demonstrate any semblance of form, you play him, he literally is that good. The fact that O Brien, Leamy and DR can all play 6 also means we have some cover in this position and so can deal with the fact that it is unlikely that Ferris will stay injury free over the course of say a 6N or world cup. It reminds me of the Paul McGrath situation and how, for both club and country, once it was confirmed the guy was fit he always made the team sheet.

    So while a concern I think our real issues are at 7 and 8 and achieving the right overall balance in the BR.

    It is clear SOB is never going to be a Pocock or McCaw, however if you have a fully fit and in form Ferris and Heaslip than SOB surely must also start? As for Heaslip and his form of late, the question to consider is whether he can regain his form of 09 and offer a threat off the base of the scrum, because if he can't then there is a case for SOB at 8, Ferris at 6 and the likes of Dom Ryan, Faloon, POM or others getting a run at 7.

    The issue there is again neither Dom Ryan nor POM are 'groundhogs' and Faloon, while certainly more mobile player and probably someone with a better understanding of what is required at the breakdown, it is questionable whether he has the physical atributes for this level of competition.

    So, what we are left with is whether someone(s) can rekindle the spark that made Heaslip one of our truly international quality players and as such have an all powerful backrow of Ferris, SOB and Heaslip, acknowledging that SOB will be played out of position at 7, or do we cut Heaslip adrift if he fails to step up and go all out to find the elusive 'groundhog' 7.

    For what it is worth, I'd reckon a fit and in form trio of Ferris, SOB and Heaslip would be THE force to be reckoned with and as such all this talk of 'groundhogs' would quickly evaporate.
    I'm not sure about the balance in that backrow. Plenty of powerand ball carying ability but a bit 1 paced and no ball winners.

    I agree with Talking Sense (the shame:o) that we need a seven who can play the position, linking up play, supporting runners and winning ball on the ground.

    The current trio don't offer that and it showed last weekend.

    Another consideration is the lineout option. A backrow of 6. Ferris, 8. SOB and 7. McCaw does not offer much in that department.

    Leave a comment:


  • HurlerOnDeDitch
    replied
    Originally posted by Ger K View Post
    I think our policy of not looking any further than the next game came back to bite us in the ass. We had 2 years to do our homework for the Australia and Italy matches but only 5 days preparation went into the Wales match because we didn't want to look ahead before we had disposed of Italy. If we had 2 years of targeting Wales it would have been a different story imo
    Eeermmm........that might have been a little difficult since we didn't know we would be playing Wales until after the Oz game. We could just as easily have faced the Saffers or Samoa.

    Besides, just because the team takes one game at a time (and rightly so) doesn't mean that the video analysis and tactical planning wasn't started a bit earlier.

    Leave a comment:


  • Aussiedub
    replied
    Strauss if picked at hooker plays a lot like a 7 away from the set pieces and has had a good few years experience playing at 7 in SA.

    An alternative angle is moving SOB to 12 (assuming a lot of work done on his passing) and play him like Roberts for Wales.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ger K
    replied
    I think our policy of not looking any further than the next game came back to bite us in the ass. We had 2 years to do our homework for the Australia and Italy matches but only 5 days preparation went into the Wales match because we didn't want to look ahead before we had disposed of Italy. If we had 2 years of targeting Wales it would have been a different story imo

    Leave a comment:


  • Talking Sense
    replied
    Fair points SB but looking at the semi finalists it would seem an out and out 7 is required for a truly balanced BR. NZ have such a well balanced BR, they really should be the template to go from. Kaino is a wrecking ball, a true defensive monster. Richie is an expert at the breakdown and covers so much ground in support play and being first to the ruck. Read is fast ball carrier with classy hands and powerful enough to do the nitty gritty and an excellent lineout operator.

    I think we need to find a 7, same goes for England, think it cost us both. I don't think SOB is the answer and he should be our 8, he is our best ball carrier. If I was Dom Ryan or POM I would be looking at 6 and 8 as closed shops in the Irish team and 7 as their way into the Irish team, hence try to get a run at 7 and establish themselves.

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  • supiebrian
    replied
    Originally posted by busbi View Post
    Would agree on the vast bulk of that RHH. When you sit back and look at it, centre aside, there is no major surgery required and no massive clearout. Would love to see Spence get a game during the 6N's at 12.

    What's the word in Ulster about the state of Ferris? There has to be an asterix next to his name in any planning for the future given the reports about his knee.
    In terms of Ferris, I think it simply boils down to when he is fit and is able to demonstrate any semblance of form, you play him, he literally is that good. The fact that O Brien, Leamy and DR can all play 6 also means we have some cover in this position and so can deal with the fact that it is unlikely that Ferris will stay injury free over the course of say a 6N or world cup. It reminds me of the Paul McGrath situation and how, for both club and country, once it was confirmed the guy was fit he always made the team sheet.

    So while a concern I think our real issues are at 7 and 8 and achieving the right overall balance in the BR.

    It is clear SOB is never going to be a Pocock or McCaw, however if you have a fully fit and in form Ferris and Heaslip than SOB surely must also start? As for Heaslip and his form of late, the question to consider is whether he can regain his form of 09 and offer a threat off the base of the scrum, because if he can't then there is a case for SOB at 8, Ferris at 6 and the likes of Dom Ryan, Faloon, POM or others getting a run at 7.

    The issue there is again neither Dom Ryan nor POM are 'groundhogs' and Faloon, while certainly more mobile player and probably someone with a better understanding of what is required at the breakdown, it is questionable whether he has the physical atributes for this level of competition.

    So, what we are left with is whether someone(s) can rekindle the spark that made Heaslip one of our truly international quality players and as such have an all powerful backrow of Ferris, SOB and Heaslip, acknowledging that SOB will be played out of position at 7, or do we cut Heaslip adrift if he fails to step up and go all out to find the elusive 'groundhog' 7.

    For what it is worth, I'd reckon a fit and in form trio of Ferris, SOB and Heaslip would be THE force to be reckoned with and as such all this talk of 'groundhogs' would quickly evaporate.

    Leave a comment:


  • Thomond78
    replied
    Originally posted by Grandpasimpson View Post
    Scrum.com has Earls making 3 tackles and missing one.
    There you go again, with those facts of yours. Tsk.

    Leave a comment:

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