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    Originally posted by In Joe we trust View Post

    My point is if players are not playing running/offloading rugby for example at provincial level how do you expect them to suddenly start doing this at international level? For example do you think Murray can become a fast moving, quick ball playing scrumhalf for Ireland when he doesn't do it for Munster or CJ/POM can become offloading ball carriers again for Ireland when they don't do it for Munster? It's the same way that Sexton can't be a running/attacking outhalf or Toner a big ball carrying 2nd row
    We can and have been successful playing the way we do. The wheel doesn’t need reinventing, but the mistakes that were made on and off the field need to be looked at.

    You mentioned Sexton and Murray, both had terrible days from the boot. Fix the mistakes that had Sexton not make touch twice, figure out why Murray kicked so poorly and then your some of the way there.

    CJ does what CJ does, it’s not flash, it’s not highlights reel stuff but it’s high percentage low reward grunt.

    Answer the question why we didn’t put japan away with a 12 point lead, because that loss diverted our path to a hammering from NZ.

    Comment


      Originally posted by lawrence View Post

      We can and have been successful playing the way we do. The wheel doesn’t need reinventing, but the mistakes that were made on and off the field need to be looked at.

      You mentioned Sexton and Murray, both had terrible days from the boot. Fix the mistakes that had Sexton not make touch twice, figure out why Murray kicked so poorly and then your some of the way there.

      CJ does what CJ does, it’s not flash, it’s not highlights reel stuff but it’s high percentage low reward grunt.

      Answer the question why we didn’t put japan away with a 12 point lead, because that loss diverted our path to a hammering from NZ.
      Denial. We can't be consistently successful at the highest level playing the way we do. The game has moved on - structured attrition rugby can't beat the ABs, England, or even Wales of 2019 (not to mention Japan, and probably South Africa too)...

      Comment


        Originally posted by Talking Sense View Post

        How do you explain Wales’ countless Grand slams despite their clubs having never gone close to being at top table in Europe, I’m all ears
        I’m still waiting IJWT
        \"Only Pienaar, Botha and Ferris would be in contention for a place on our first 15. That\'s a fact.\" - Tickettout\'s take on Ulster April 2011.

        Comment


          Originally posted by neliog93 View Post

          Denial. We can't be consistently successful at the highest level playing the way we do. The game has moved on - structured attrition rugby can't beat the ABs, England, or even Wales of 2019 (not to mention Japan, and probably South Africa too)...
          Totally agree. Ireland's gameplan was shown up to be a busted flush early in 2019 v England. (& after v Wales, England, Japan & NZ!!) Most top international sides now have a second playmaker e.g. NZ, England, Australia, etc,etc. Also they offer multiple runners & different running options from each ruck in phase play e.g. NZ normally have 2/3 forward runners & at least one running back option off each phase, which they use judiciously to keep opposition defences constantly guessing, & to gradually pull them apart.

          Ireland on the other hand trundle up obvious one out runners, from slow ruck ball, who are easily identified, and double tackled by NZ for instance, who turned them over repeatedly throughout the game....

          Ireland's lack of a running fullback option became glaringly obvious versus NZ ... Beauden Barrett countered like a demon, Rob Kearney just kept either over running or running into Johnny Sexton.... it looked pathetic tbh...

          Ireland were very poor, their selection was plain wrong in about 4/5 positions, which was clear before this game, their gameplan sucked, it hadn't evolved after it had been found out badly in February, ( & again in Mar, Aug & Oct), and further their players had played just 7 days earlier, cos their coach wouldn't trust his squadies v Samoa ffs!! As a result Schmidt's top match day squad were less fresh, less well prepped, and with many carrying chronic injuries & niggles that could have been avoided versus NZ in a RWC 1/4 final.

          It was a real shame to finish Joe Schmidt's excellent Irish coaching career like that, but sadly, he really only had himself to blame imho.
          Last edited by Daithi; 21st-October-2019, 06:45.
          ____________________________________________
          Munster were great when they were Munster.

          alas they are just north munster now.......
          ____________________________________________

          Comment


            Originally posted by neliog93 View Post

            Denial. We can't be consistently successful at the highest level playing the way we do. The game has moved on - structured attrition rugby can't beat the ABs, England, or even Wales of 2019 (not to mention Japan, and probably South Africa too)...
            We won’t be successful playing any type of game if we can’t run accurate lines, make our kicks to touch and box kick properly. Its not denial but if your basics are off then no game plan works.

            I think we should have adopted a second playmaker a long time ago, and should still do it, even as a plan B, but It’s hard to see what our plan B is, if there is even one there, why didn’t Carbery come on at 15 against NZ? Larmour is an average player, he provides no link play, and we have seen his speed isn’t exactly top level either, he’s not an upgrade on Kearney.

            SA are using Laroux as a playmaker, England are using two 10’s in some games and NZ are giving BB more time and space to do more damage.

            Comment


              Originally posted by lawrence View Post

              We won’t be successful playing any type of game if we can’t run accurate lines, make our kicks to touch and box kick properly. Its not denial but if your basics are off then no game plan works.

              I think we should have adopted a second playmaker a long time ago, and should still do it, even as a plan B, but It’s hard to see what our plan B is, if there is even one there, why didn’t Carbery come on at 15 against NZ? Larmour is an average player, he provides no link play, and we have seen his speed isn’t exactly top level either, he’s not an upgrade on Kearney.

              SA are using Laroux as a playmaker, England are using two 10’s in some games and NZ are giving BB more time and space to do more damage.
              Agree about the second playmaker. The problem is that I can't think of a 12 in Ireland with the combination of footballing ability, a rugby brain, an all round kicking/running game, real speed and a sound defence, who would fit the bill. The trend for big boshers in recent years has left the cupboard bare.
              I have been really disappointed in the progress of Henshaw and Ringrose, a couple of willing but overrated midfielders who are really nothing special at all, especially in the creativity- and gas departments. Ireland will certainly not progress as an attacking force as long as this pair continues to be selected. I would not see players like Scannell or McCloskey as an improvement either.
              Erse end of nowhere

              Comment


                Originally posted by Spiffy View Post

                Agree about the second playmaker. The problem is that I can't think of a 12 in Ireland with the combination of footballing ability, a rugby brain, an all round kicking/running game, real speed and a sound defence, who would fit the bill. The trend for big boshers in recent years has left the cupboard bare.
                I have been really disappointed in the progress of Henshaw and Ringrose, a couple of willing but overrated midfielders who are really nothing special at all, especially in the creativity- and gas departments. Ireland will certainly not progress as an attacking force as long as this pair continues to be selected. I would not see players like Scannell or McCloskey as an improvement either.

                Carbery is the obvious one to use at FB, but that was never tried, even put Sexton back there where he has less hits to take.

                The inability of our halfbacks and midfield to get our wingers into attacking play is a complete failure, and an embarrassing failure. Earls and Stockdale scored no try’s in the WC, and they didn’t look like doing it either.

                NZ, Japan and SA play to bring Reece, Kolbe, mampipi, Fukuoka etc etc into the game, where they can do damage and it always involves more than just the 10 playing the ball. LeRoux looks for skip passes to Kolbe, the Japanese are comfortable in a lot of areas to get the ball wide.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Talking Sense View Post

                  I’m still waiting IJWT
                  3 Grand Slams and 4 Championship wins in 12 years isn't that great.

                  Wales play a relatively simple and straightforward style of rugby which is primarily based on suffocating defence and good goal kicking. The style the play isn't a style that is overly exciting or particularly complex and isn't a style that requires a level of skill that is over and above what the players play on a weekly basis. This is highlight by thir record against SH teams 7 wins in 33 games over 12 years (compared to Irelands 9 wins out of 16 games in 6 years).

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by lawrence View Post
                    Larmour is an average player, he provides no link play, and we have seen his speed isn’t exactly top level either, he’s not an upgrade on Kearney....
                    https://images.app.goo.gl/u46u7LgihuLzifbcA

                    Ah jeez Lawrence, come off the whiskey & wake up to the real world. Larmour is such an upgrade over the Rob Kearney of 2019 that it's not even funny that RK was selected ahead of him.

                    He's far faster, fitter, & younger and offers a (much better) attacking option, while visibly improving with every game at international level. Not selecting him or Conway at 15 @RWC19 was a travesty imho.
                    ____________________________________________
                    Munster were great when they were Munster.

                    alas they are just north munster now.......
                    ____________________________________________

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by In Joe we trust View Post

                      3 Grand Slams and 4 Championship wins in 12 years isn't that great.

                      Wales play a relatively simple and straightforward style of rugby which is primarily based on suffocating defence and good goal kicking. The style the play isn't a style that is overly exciting or particularly complex and isn't a style that requires a level of skill that is over and above what the players play on a weekly basis. This is highlight by thir record against SH teams 7 wins in 33 games over 12 years (compared to Irelands 9 wins out of 16 games in 6 years).
                      Powerful weak
                      I am the million man.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by In Joe we trust View Post

                        3 Grand Slams and 4 Championship wins in 12 years isn't that great.

                        Wales play a relatively simple and straightforward style of rugby which is primarily based on suffocating defence and good goal kicking. The style the play isn't a style that is overly exciting or particularly complex and isn't a style that requires a level of skill that is over and above what the players play on a weekly basis. This is highlight by thir record against SH teams 7 wins in 33 games over 12 years (compared to Irelands 9 wins out of 16 games in 6 years).
                        A fine effort but it still doesnt tot up, good try nonetheless. Wales are ****e at club level and when they line out in Red they are a fantastic side that can play rugby, go figure.
                        \"Only Pienaar, Botha and Ferris would be in contention for a place on our first 15. That\'s a fact.\" - Tickettout\'s take on Ulster April 2011.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by In Joe we trust View Post

                          3 Grand Slams and 4 Championship wins in 12 years isn't that great.

                          Wales play a relatively simple and straightforward style of rugby which is primarily based on suffocating defence and good goal kicking. The style the play isn't a style that is overly exciting or particularly complex and isn't a style that requires a level of skill that is over and above what the players play on a weekly basis. This is highlight by thir record against SH teams 7 wins in 33 games over 12 years (compared to Irelands 9 wins out of 16 games in 6 years).
                          Three Grand Slams and 4 Championships in 12 years is a better run rate than Schmidt had, and then there’s a couple of RWC semi finals too. And Gatland didn’t have European Cup winning sides feeding him players.

                          Whatever way you cut it, Gatland is bowing out reputation intact. Joe isn’t. I know which one has a better shot at coaching the ABs.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Munsterboy View Post

                            Three Grand Slams and 4 Championships in 12 years is a better run rate than Schmidt had, and then there’s a couple of RWC semi finals too. And Gatland didn’t have European Cup winning sides feeding him players.

                            Whatever way you cut it, Gatland is bowing out reputation intact. Joe isn’t. I know which one has a better shot at coaching the ABs.
                            Gatland also had to cope with a player exodus to England and France, and a Welsh structure in disarray. We had a few notable player losses, but ( and I think this is something we should be proud of) Joe had the full support of the union and provinces. To me, joes lasting contribution is the way he helped to fashion the structure, and that is probably the only way in which he was more successful than Gatland.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Daithi View Post

                              https://images.app.goo.gl/u46u7LgihuLzifbcA

                              Ah jeez Lawrence, come off the whiskey & wake up to the real world. Larmour is such an upgrade over the Rob Kearney of 2019 that it's not even funny that RK was selected ahead of him.

                              He's far faster, fitter, & younger and offers a (much better) attacking option, while visibly improving with every game at international level. Not selecting him or Conway at 15 @RWC19 was a travesty imho.
                              I have felt all along that Larmour was a bit overrated. For the sake of the RWC I really wanted him to explode onto the scene and be undroppable. He definitely improved over the tournament but he is not so good that he would have made that much of a difference on Saturday.

                              Saturday could have made 2019 all better with a win. Instead it compounded a terrible year and ended quite a few international careers with a whimper. The management has failed spectacularly and how a decent bunch of professional players can go out and be as abject as that, is actually embarrassing.

                              The selection of henshaw over Chris Farrell was the worst selection call of all, given he was the worst player against Samoa and probably the worst player against NZ.

                              Coaching NZ might be one of the easier gigs in world rugby but Steve Hansen is bloody good at it and I hope they go on and win it now.


                              Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Heisenberg View Post

                                I have felt all along that Larmour was a bit overrated. For the sake of the RWC I really wanted him to explode onto the scene and be undroppable. He definitely improved over the tournament but he is not so good that he would have made that much of a difference on Saturday......
                                Ok, let's put this another way. Imagine if New Zealand had instead made 4-5 clear selection errors, if they had used a fully figured out, out moded game plan that was piss easy to defend against, and if they played their full side only 7 days before in a tournament (versus v opposition's 14 days rest & prep), where they had already shown they were struggling with recovery rates....

                                Now, do you think that would have made a difference!?!

                                P.s. just for good measure, both of their key playmakers who manage chronic injuries & niggles were also played 7 days before versus Samoa ffs!!!
                                Last edited by Daithi; 21st-October-2019, 08:50.
                                ____________________________________________
                                Munster were great when they were Munster.

                                alas they are just north munster now.......
                                ____________________________________________

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