The quarter final thread

[jagawayagain]

Sexton needs a good break,,, ,Extended. Then let him see if he can shift Ross . and see where that takes him.

I think every one of the players in Japan need to go back to provinces, have the rest they need, and oust those currently in their position, based on fitness and form- not what they used to be like. Then let Farrell use the Christmas inter pros as the basis of his selection - bit like the old days is probables and possibles.

[Talking Sense]

Kearney will (and should) start.

Good call.

[mr chips]

Not really a disappointment regarding our level and the fact we had to play the Galactics or the Saffes. But the final score and most of all the one way game we had to endure really hurt.
Imagine that: In the WHOLE game, we were only three times in their 5 meters, and on the second occasion, we scored by Robbie. That was in the 65 minute!
I took the rout in England as a simple incident of preparation, what the wins over Wales and most of all over Scotland seemed to confirm. I considered the defeat against Japan was the consequence of a lack of ingredients in our game, most of all of mentally ingredients and of an excess of self-importence (what, this said, does absolutely not suits the irish mentality). I was wrong on the whole line: This team and most of all it's management is simply at the end of its way, of its system, of its philosophy, a bit like what happened to EOS's team 12 years ago in France. The veterans struggled and did not have the influence they had in the past, the team seemed to be physically limited, and Joe's system appears to be worn down to the tread.

End of a (long) cycle, with players who were at their top last year.
- Rory is away, who's the next? Sean Cronin is 33. Nial Scanell seems the next one. But with who?
- We have material at props., Tadgh Furlong is only 26, Andrew Porter 23. After all, Cian Healy is the oldest, and 32 for a prop is not so old.
- Second rowers: No problem. James Ryan is only 23, Jean-Klein is 26, Iain Henderson and Tadgh Beirn are 27. The issue is the stereotypical game the coaches let them play: Most of all, they are staying or they move with insufficient pace when the get the ball and they have issues to break the line. When you see what Ryan, Henderson and most of all Beirn can do when they get the ball in movement, it's a pity. Moreover, when you see how the Blacks for exemple allow the ball to live when they are tackled and go to the ground, there is a huge difference with the irish philosophy.
- Back row will be an issue: CJ does not break the walls anymore, POM was the only light on the game today. Rhys Ruddock was good. We missed Dan Leavy even if Josh Van der Flier was not bad at all, but what will be with him after his injury?
- Because speaking about recovery, Connor has never been the Connor from before his injury. He looks slow, awkward, no more as accurate in his box-kicks. Drama: McGrath is no more a young promising player and is by far not ready, and Marmion did not convinced. I fear a desert at 9 in the next years.
- Johnny is 34 and at the end of the way. Today, he was simply bad. But Joey was not better. Jack Carty has a very good level in club, but I feel he was a spare tyre
- At center, Robbie had a mare in this competition. Garry Ringrose tried, but without success.. Bundy was our best player, but he is 32.
- In the back three, our best player was Keith who was defensively outstanding, but he is 32. Jacob had a bad experience, but is talented and young enough to get something out it;, Jordan Larmour is the future. An please, get rid of Rob "the ball digger" Kearney! If the new crew wants to give an new based on speed, pace and game continuity philosophy, he cannpt suit in the plan.
And last question: With Farrell who is known to be a specialist of the defense, and Mike Catt who's coming (if I do not commit a mistake) what will be the plan? What will be the plan of development of the game? Wiil there be a change of philosophy, because today, New Munster let the irish rugby look very very old and updated. Courage and a respect of a strict game plan are no more enough, most of all if this plan has been analyzed, and dissected for years without any B plan was put on the table.

This said, thanks to Joe (to Rory and to those who will leave the boat after years of loyal service), and don't throw the baby out with the bathwater: Three 6N, one Grand Slam, never worse than 3rd in the tournament, two victories against the ABs for the first time ever, a win in the serie against Australia last summer, we have to stay grateful to him
The curse of the WC quarters goes on, up to the next crew to find a solution. But concerning that, I do not feel really at ease

We went to Japan with too many guys being held together by gaffer tape - Henshaw, Sexton, Carbery and Kearney all carrying knocks and niggles of one sort or another, meaning several other guys were overplayed. It meant there was even less chance that maximum use would be made of the squad, but it's yet another instance of Joe's conservative nature as a selector, which was always one of his greatest weaknesses.

Anyway, that is - hopefully - the past now. At hooker we currently have Scannell, Cronin and Herring - I'd have them in that order, but it remains to be seen whether Andy Farrell will continue to see Cronin as the "super sub". Of the Munster lads, Marshall is IQ as of this month, while O'Byrne is surely on the verge of a call-up, and tbh I think all three Munster hookers could well be the Ireland starting, bench and reserve hookers in a year's time. Tracy seems the most likely candidate from Leinster, although Ronan Kelleher seems to be well-regarded. I can't see any of Ulster or Connacht's current crop making the national side though - maybe Adam McBurney?

In the back row, the future looks reasonably bright - JOD looks to be back on track after coming back from the same injury that has Dan Leavy sidelined, while another Munster lad Gavin Coombes seems like the next big thing. Van der Flier is still only 26 and Leinster have several lads coming through here. Can't say yet if Wycherley's future is set to be at lock or at blindside, but he's too good a player and too gnarly a competitor not to make it into the Ireland squad soon.

At 9, it's true that Murray hasn't been his old self for nearly a year by now, but again a change of gameplan in the Irish camp combined with the fresh approach of Larkham in Munster may see him return to his best. I have very high hopes for Craig Casey and I've heard good things about Jack Stafford and Nick McCarthy, although I've not seen enough of either to make my own mind up yet. With Marmion and Cooney both very capable options at scrum half, I'm not too concerned about the future for that jersey.

Ross Byrne will be snapping at the heels of Jack Carty - both are fine flyhalves in their own different ways. The ship has probably sailed for Tyler and JJ, but if Bill Johnston can make a name for himself in Ulster he could find himself in contention.

At centre, Chris Farrell surely has to be a more regular starter - he's never let Ireland down and I suspect we might have been less soundly beaten with him on the field today. I'd like to see more of him at 12 as well. McCloskey may be more favoured by Farrell than he was by Joe, and he has a combination of physicality with a decent offload, if we can make use of that kind of skillset.

At fullback, thank you and goodnight. Let Larmour, Addison (assuming he can stay fit) and Conway fight it out properly. I think Stephen Fitzgerald could be also a dark horse candidate for a call-up. Ulster's Michael Lowry is a terrier but may just be too small for international rugby.

[jagawayagain]

Have now listened to that press conference twice, in case I missed Joe at any point saying whether the coaching staff had any responsibility at all for the performance- and zilch. Niggles during the week apparently made the selection uncertain until Thursday- was he ever going to pick anyone else?

[BigLad]

Be interesting to see how Farrell and Catt pick an Irish 23 without the blue glasses and rds showjumping helmets on.

[LongtimeLurker]

This was a failure be of the collective. People looking for scapegoats and naming individuals doesn’t do anything for anyone or change anything. None of them went out intending to have a shi*e game. We were unlikely to change / unwilling to change the way we played. The gig was up fifteen minutes in, we were never coming back from 10 nil down against them and the players knew it too. The one criticism I would make is for all JS vaunted depth building it proved to be his Achilles heel - like other Irish coaches before him he proved today he didn’t really trust the understudies.

We were beaten out the gate by a fantastic side who felt they owed us one. We weren’t allowed to show up and then we took out the 12 gauge and blew our own feet off a number of times. We gave them too many easy entries into the game and didn’t ask any real questions while when the game was still a contest. For us to have a chance everything had to go right, that just didn’t happen and all the 50:50s seem to go against us. Sometimes is just not going to be you day no matter what you do. Today was one of those days. Different players on the pitch might have mitigated the score a smidgen but not the result. We were lucky that New Zealand pulled up a bit in the final quarter or they would have broken 60.

Congratulations and best of luck to them. New Zealand v England will titanic, suspect the winner will beat whoever comes out the other side of the draw

Thank your for everything Rory Best, will remember the ruck clear out against NZ a few years ago with a broken arm till my dying day. Gave it everything pity about today but lots of great days in green.

[Mumhain]

- Back row will be an issue: CJ does not break the walls anymore, POM was the only light on the game today. Rhys Ruddock was good. We missed Dan Leavy even if Josh Van der Flier was not bad at all, but what will be with him after his injury?
- Because speaking about recovery, Connor has never been the Connor from before his injury. He looks slow, awkward, no more as accurate in his box-kicks. Drama: McGrath is no more a young promising player and is by far not ready, and Marmion did not convinced. I fear a desert at 9 in the next years.

In an ideal world, Craig Casey would be Ireland's starting scrum-half in four years time. Unfortunately though, with our propensity to sign medical jokers anytime there is an opportunity to give youth a chance, I think it's unlikely. Agree that there aren't many young scrum-halves really standing out. Maybe Gibson Park or Caolin Blade in four years time?

I don't see the back row being as big an issue. I think Ireland have had a number of top quality under-20 8's over the last few years. Max Deegan, Caelen Dorris, Gavin Coombes, Jack O'Sullivan and Hodnett have big potential. From a Munster point of view, I think we could have two exceptional young talents in Daniel Okeke and Alex Kendellen, who are under 19 this year.

[Spiffy]

We went to Japan with too many guys being held together by gaffer tape - Henshaw, Sexton, Carbery and Kearney all carrying knocks and niggles of one sort or another, meaning several other guys were overplayed. It meant there was even less chance that maximum use would be made of the squad, but it's yet another instance of Joe's conservative nature as a selector, which was always one of his greatest weaknesses.

Anyway, that is - hopefully - the past now. At hooker we currently have Scannell, Cronin and Herring - I'd have them in that order, but it remains to be seen whether Andy Farrell will continue to see Cronin as the "super sub". Of the Munster lads, Marshall is IQ as of this month, while O'Byrne is surely on the verge of a call-up, and tbh I think all three Munster hookers could well be the Ireland starting, bench and reserve hookers in a year's time. Tracy seems the most likely candidate from Leinster, although Ronan Kelleher seems to be well-regarded. I can't see any of Ulster or Connacht's current crop making the national side though - maybe Adam McBurney?

In the back row, the future looks reasonably bright - JOD looks to be back on track after coming back from the same injury that has Dan Leavy sidelined, while another Munster lad Gavin Coombes seems like the next big thing. Van der Flier is still only 26 and Leinster have several lads coming through here. Can't say yet if Wycherley's future is set to be at lock or at blindside, but he's too good a player and too gnarly a competitor not to make it into the Ireland squad soon.

At 9, it's true that Murray hasn't been his old self for nearly a year by now, but again a change of gameplan in the Irish camp combined with the fresh approach of Larkham in Munster may see him return to his best. I have very high hopes for Craig Casey and I've heard good things about Jack Stafford and Nick McCarthy, although I've not seen enough of either to make my own mind up yet. With Marmion and Cooney both very capable options at scrum half, I'm not too concerned about the future for that jersey.

Ross Byrne will be snapping at the heels of Jack Carty - both are fine flyhalves in their own different ways. The ship has probably sailed for Tyler and JJ, but if Bill Johnston can make a name for himself in Ulster he could find himself in contention.

At centre, Chris Farrell surely has to be a more regular starter - he's never let Ireland down and I suspect we might have been less soundly beaten with him on the field today. I'd like to see more of him at 12 as well. McCloskey may be more favoured by Farrell than he was by Joe, and he has a combination of physicality with a decent offload, if we can make use of that kind of skillset.

At fullback, thank you and goodnight. Let Larmour, Addison (assuming he can stay fit) and Conway fight it out properly. I think Stephen Fitzgerald could be also a dark horse candidate for a call-up. Ulster's Michael Lowry is a terrier but may just be too small for international rugby.

Hope to see Addison's future more as a centre. He is fast and a good footballer. I was very disappointed with the Ireland midfield in the RWC. They are willing and put in a good defensive stint, but are just short of the required speed to have a cutting edge in attack. Ringrose looked full of promise, but seems to be stuck at the same place for some time now. Henshaw is powerful, but a tad lumbering. These two should not be automatic first selections when fit. Aki is quite one dimensional. Farrell did impress, but Schmidt did not have the balls to give him more game time. Hope the new coaches are willing to experiment with some midfield combinations, such as Farrell/Addison. Even Stockdale showed some promise as a centre for Ulster last year and looks quite good bursting through the midfield. Conway and Larmour have to be fitted in, based on their form and pace.
Maybe this could be a breakthrough season for players like Frawley/Kelleher at Leinster and Baloucoune the lightening Ulster wing.
I think the biggest takehome message from the Schmidt era is that promising young players must not have the natural talent and flair coached out of their game for the safety first play-by-numbers approach.

[Mumhain]

We went to Japan with too many guys being held together by gaffer tape - Henshaw, Sexton, Carbery and Kearney all carrying knocks and niggles of one sort or another, meaning several other guys were overplayed. It meant there was even less chance that maximum use would be made of the squad, but it's yet another instance of Joe's conservative nature as a selector, which was always one of his greatest weaknesses.

Anyway, that is - hopefully - the past now. At hooker we currently have Scannell, Cronin and Herring - I'd have them in that order, but it remains to be seen whether Andy Farrell will continue to see Cronin as the "super sub". Of the Munster lads, Marshall is IQ as of this month, while O'Byrne is surely on the verge of a call-up, and tbh I think all three Munster hookers could well be the Ireland starting, bench and reserve hookers in a year's time. Tracy seems the most likely candidate from Leinster, although Ronan Kelleher seems to be well-regarded. I can't see any of Ulster or Connacht's current crop making the national side though - maybe Adam McBurney?

In the back row, the future looks reasonably bright - JOD looks to be back on track after coming back from the same injury that has Dan Leavy sidelined, while another Munster lad Gavin Coombes seems like the next big thing. Van der Flier is still only 26 and Leinster have several lads coming through here. Can't say yet if Wycherley's future is set to be at lock or at blindside, but he's too good a player and too gnarly a competitor not to make it into the Ireland squad soon.

At 9, it's true that Murray hasn't been his old self for nearly a year by now, but again a change of gameplan in the Irish camp combined with the fresh approach of Larkham in Munster may see him return to his best. I have very high hopes for Craig Casey and I've heard good things about Jack Stafford and Nick McCarthy, although I've not seen enough of either to make my own mind up yet. With Marmion and Cooney both very capable options at scrum half, I'm not too concerned about the future for that jersey.

Ross Byrne will be snapping at the heels of Jack Carty - both are fine flyhalves in their own different ways. The ship has probably sailed for Tyler and JJ, but if Bill Johnston can make a name for himself in Ulster he could find himself in contention.

At centre, Chris Farrell surely has to be a more regular starter - he's never let Ireland down and I suspect we might have been less soundly beaten with him on the field today. I'd like to see more of him at 12 as well. McCloskey may be more favoured by Farrell than he was by Joe, and he has a combination of physicality with a decent offload, if we can make use of that kind of skillset.

At fullback, thank you and goodnight. Let Larmour, Addison (assuming he can stay fit) and Conway fight it out properly. I think Stephen Fitzgerald could be also a dark horse candidate for a call-up. Ulster's Michael Lowry is a terrier but may just be too small for international rugby.

Good call on Stuart McCloskey and Chris Farrell getting more game under Andy Farrell. Andy Farrell has a history of liking big, powerful centres - who are strong in defense. At Saracens it was Brad Barritt. When he was defense coach for England, apparently he was one of the main reasons why Sam Burgess was selected. McCloskey and Farrell fit this bill. Another young guy that fits this descriptions is Peter Robb at Connacht.

I wouldn't write off the hookers at Connacht, though. Shane Delahunt is a bit of a freak physically and if he can take the starting Connacht hooker jersey, I'd expect him to see game time for Ireland, fairly soon. Dylan Tierney-Martin is another big talent at Connacht. He was outstanding for the Ireland under 20's.

[BigLad]

Off topic but from a Munster point of view I would suffer short term pain by blooding Knox. Casey. Ben Healy in. If we don’t feature in a euro semi for three years so be it. Hansen made a good point today. Experience in big games in nz doesn’t cut it. Form does. And by current form I would have Mathewson starting over Murray in November.

[Surveyor]

Maybe now a bit of imagination and flair might be re-introduced, Joe's successor might even give that Cork lad playing in France a go....Zebra.... or whatever his name is?

[Surveyor]

Joey looks very small for the modern international game. He got ragdolled like a small child today a few times. I'm not sure he has the physique for it.

Yeah, the Japanese are huge too, what rugby needs is more 150 kg wingers and 2m scrum halves, you cant have too many big lads crashing into each other.

[Yatenga]

Agreed that this loss wasn't down to any individual performance. It was a collective failure where Joe's inability to change and adapt with time. Joe was never going to pick Larmour, Conway, Scannell, Kilcoyne regardless of form. You can argue that players like Scanell hadn't stepped up but had they really gotten the opportunities? Zebo left but if he hadn't does anybody think he would have played? And leave aside the detail of whether or not Zebo should play: was there ever room in Joe's team for an off the cuff player like Zebo? NZ evolved over 2 years, we atrophied and going into this game we were hoping for a one-off result, a rub of the green, that required us to play 100% of capacity and NZ to play below theirs.

[mr chips]

We were unlikely to change / unwilling to change the way we played.

I agree with most of your post, but this statement isn't IMO something to be accepted as just one of those things, a factor which was unfortunate yet inevitable. Rather, it sums up one of the greatest flaws in Joe's approach to the game - a lack of flexible thinking, whether in relation to gameplan/tactics or selection.

We've had some great days with him at the helm, and I'm not dismissing or belittling some historic moments achieved under his guidance. But rather than using those as stepping-stones to further achievement - the way e.g. Warren Gatland has - they turned out to be the high water mark, from which he and we have since receded.

[Mumhain]

Off topic but from a Munster point of view I would suffer short term pain by blooding Knox. Casey. Ben Healy in. If we don’t feature in a euro semi for three years so be it. Hansen made a good point today. Experience in big games in nz doesn’t cut it. Form does. And by current form I would have Mathewson starting over Murray in November.

I know it's off topic, but completely agree re Munster. I would gladly take two mediocre seasons if it meant we had a new golden generation in two years time.