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Japan v Ireland, 08.15, Sat 28 Sept

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    Originally posted by Daithi View Post
    Unfortunately this loss may well have significant consequences for Ireland's chances of 1. reaching a RWC final & 2. the possibility of winning a final. Because assuming Japan go on to beat Scotland, Ireland's path to the final is then likely to be @ QF, SF & Final
    NZ, then Eng then SA in a RWC final
    versus
    SA, then Aus/Wales, then NZ in a RWC final.

    So yesterday's poor loss not only seriously diminished Ireland's chances in the quarterfinals but also in the semis and also in a final (cos of the more attritional matches on the now tougher side of the draw). Not good news Ted!!

    P.s. the good news being that Scotland may still do us a favour!?
    Scotland may well beat Japan.

    Comment


      Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post

      Schmidt, imho, took Japan, Russia and Samoa as done deals and started phasing his players towards the QF.

      Heat and humidity - yes, they'll have had an impact. But having looked in prime form against Scotland, there's more to the fact that we were blowing out our arse after half an hour, surely?
      I think Joe had a plan from the outset- as he should have done. There was an encouraging result against Scotland, although he had had to change that plan by replacing Earls and Kearney. The injuries tipped his hand with the selection for Japan, but because he thought earls and Kearney should start (to remain true to the Scotland plan) the players that needed to be rotated, the front row, on of Hendo /Ryan, and the plan to bring in Conan were scuppered. The result was that those who started last week were out on their feet after 30. This was entirely predictable and, alas, Joe’s consistent approach, make a plan and stick to it, which has served us so well for so long, was found wanting - again.

      What we have seen is that these players do not recover well enough to play their best for 60 plus, after the 6 day turnaround. Goodness knows what Joe and others saw in training to suggest that they could, but they got this wrong. While they will acclimatise more, we now have players, probably our best players, that have still less in the tank, and thus really shouldn’t be playing the next game. However, if they rest, and play against Samoa, we already know they are unlikely to recover well enough for the QF. So now we have the silly situation where some of these need to plan against Russia, in order to be recuperated for the final, but they are exhausted, and (I’d imagine) fairly down. Moreover, we lost- presumably something Joe was trying to avoid by selecting his strongest side available (given injuries). This is a player management problem, and it has ramifications for selection for the next three fixtures. Dumb.
      Last edited by jagawayagain; 29th-September-2019, 14:16.

      Comment


        There was a lot of errors from management here but the non rotation of Best was an absolute howler really.

        A 37 year old who has been past his optimum & visibly waning for some time. Then he has to put in 80mins of test rugby 6 days ago & Joe decides to run him again with a fully fit Scannell (&Cronin) available....dumb & dumber.
        ____________________________________________
        Munster were great when they were Munster.

        alas they are just north munster now.......
        ____________________________________________

        Comment


          Originally posted by jagawayagain View Post

          I think Joe had a plan from the outset- as he should have done. There was an encouraging result against Scotland, although he had had to change that plan by replacing Earls and Kearney. The injuries tipped his hand with the selection for Japan, but because he thought earls and Kearney should start (to remain true to the Scotland plan) the players that needed to be rotated, the front row, on of Hendo /Ryan, and the plan to bring in Conan were scuppered. The result was that those who started last week were out on their feet after 30. This was entirely predictable and, alas, Joe’s consistent approach, make a plan and stick to it, which has served us so well for so long, was found wanting - again.

          What we have seen is that these players do not recover well enough to play their best for 60 plus, after the 6 day turnaround. Goodness knows what Joe and others saw in training to suggest that they could, but they god this wrong. While they will acclimatise more, we now have players, probably our best players, that have still less in the tank, and thus really shouldn’t be playing the next game. However, if they rest, and play against Samoa, we already know they are unlikely to recover well enough for the QF. So now we have the silly situation where some of these need to plan against Russia, in order to be recuperated for the final, but they are exhausted, and (I’d imagine) fairly down. Moreover, we lost- presumably something Joe was trying to avoid by selecting his strongest side available (given injuries). This is a player management problem, and it has ramifications for selection for the next three fixtures. Dumb.
          Erse end of nowhere

          Comment


            The amount of revisionism in this thread is amusing. The amount of people who were happy with the team picked now criticising the picked team. This idea that players cant play three big games in a row is rubbish. Leinster played a ERC final,Pro 14 semifinal and Pro 14 final in consecutive weeks (maybe it would help if other players were used to that level).

            A lot of the problems we suffered yesterday were evident against Scotland but they were poor and the weather helped us. Defensively we are too narrow and don't seem to be able to defend with width whether that is due to a lack of trust in the inside players or not I'm not sure.

            its also amusing people wishing we would play a more attacking ball in hand style rather than one out bashing etc and blaming Joe for not doing so. If players don't play this style at club level how will they suddenly be able to do it for Ireland? The worrying thing is that it is like watching Munster playing when they get to the major games in the season.

            Comment


              At this rate of going Healy, Best, Furlong, POM should not be starting the qtr final. We have to start looking at Beirne in the back row.

              Comment


                Originally posted by In Joe we trust View Post
                The amount of revisionism in this thread is amusing. The amount of people who were happy with the team picked now criticising the picked team. This idea that players cant play three big games in a row is rubbish. Leinster played a ERC final,Pro 14 semifinal and Pro 14 final in consecutive weeks (maybe it would help if other players were used to that level).

                A lot of the problems we suffered yesterday were evident against Scotland but they were poor and the weather helped us. Defensively we are too narrow and don't seem to be able to defend with width whether that is due to a lack of trust in the inside players or not I'm not sure.

                its also amusing people wishing we would play a more attacking ball in hand style rather than one out bashing etc and blaming Joe for not doing so. If players don't play this style at club level how will they suddenly be able to do it for Ireland? The worrying thing is that it is like watching Munster playing when they get to the major games in the season.


                Right, so what you're saying is that the issues with the game plan and performance of Ireland is...Munster basically?

                "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post



                  Right, so what you're saying is that the issues with the game plan and performance of Ireland is...Munster basically?
                  I am saying the game plan is very Munsteresque and how do the people who want us to play a more free flowing style expect that to happen when the players arent used to it. That performance today was like Munster v Leinster in the Pro 14. Have a lot of possession but don't create much.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by In Joe we trust View Post
                    The amount of revisionism in this thread is amusing. The amount of people who were happy with the team picked now criticising the picked team. This idea that players cant play three big games in a row is rubbish. Leinster played a ERC final,Pro 14 semifinal and Pro 14 final in consecutive weeks (maybe it would help if other players were used to that level).

                    A lot of the problems we suffered yesterday were evident against Scotland but they were poor and the weather helped us. Defensively we are too narrow and don't seem to be able to defend with width whether that is due to a lack of trust in the inside players or not I'm not sure.

                    its also amusing people wishing we would play a more attacking ball in hand style rather than one out bashing etc and blaming Joe for not doing so. If players don't play this style at club level how will they suddenly be able to do it for Ireland? The worrying thing is that it is like watching Munster playing when they get to the major games in the season.

                    To be honest, I don't think people are suggesting that Ireland should play harlem globetrotters rugby, just that they should mix it up. Looking at all the other top nations (aside from South Africa), at any given moment, the option is there to run it with width(with pull-back passes), keep it tight(with one-out runners and offloads) or kick it. There is a feeling that Schmidt affords his Ireland team far less freedom to adopt to changing defenses i.e. Ireland nearly always kick it from inside their own half, use one-out carries when they get into the oppositions half and kick garry-owens when these one-out carries stop working. Schmidt has a brilliant rugby brain and comes up with 2/3 great phase-play moves per match, but this is where the variation in the Irish game ends.

                    For the most-part defenses know when Ireland are going for the one-out carries. That's why we saw three Japanese tacklers against Dave Kilcoyne. Japan could afford to commit so many men to the tight defense and breakdown, because they knew that option wasn't there for the pull-back pass. Likewise, when Ireland do carry in tight, how often do you see them looking for space and offloading ( like NZ did to the lions in the first test ).

                    It's the same game plan we have had for 6 years under Schmidt. It's far too late at this stage to change the game plan, even if Schmidt wanted to (which he clearly doesn't). We don't have the personnel in the squad. In order to play a wider game with tempo, you need a scrum-half who plays heads-up rugby and who has quick delivery. Murray used to be able to( before his injury), McGrath has never been able to. Cooney has arguably been the best scrum-half in Ireland for the past 18 months and is inarguably a far better player than McGrath and apparently wasn't picked because he doesn't stick to the game plan enough.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by In Joe we trust View Post

                      I am saying the game plan is very Munsteresque and how do the people who want us to play a more free flowing style expect that to happen when the players arent used to it. That performance today was like Munster v Leinster in the Pro 14. Have a lot of possession but don't create much.
                      Joe Schmidt is a world-class coach and one of the smartest phase-play move coaches in the world, but he has never had any intention of playing the more expansive 2-4-2 that Connacht adopted. Ulster, Connacht and Leinster have all played that system over the course of Schmidt's reign and then that personnel played a drastically different system for Ireland.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by In Joe we trust View Post

                        I am saying the game plan is very Munsteresque and how do the people who want us to play a more free flowing style expect that to happen when the players arent used to it. That performance today was like Munster v Leinster in the Pro 14. Have a lot of possession but don't create much.
                        In Joe we trust....

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by rathbaner View Post

                          The margin against Scotland was +24. If ireland as as accurate in attack and as cohesive in defence as they were against Scotland, then I cant see anything other than a trouncing for Japan. Incredible to be writing this but I think Ireland are as good as we suspect they may be.
                          It's all rathbaner's fault, tempting the mocker gods like that..
                          "Fineen Wycherley was everywhere. When I watched this video back late on Saturday night I half expected to look up from my laptop to find him in my kitchen ' TRK Nov 3rd 2019 following Cardiff v Munster

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by In Joe we trust View Post
                            The amount of revisionism in this thread is amusing. The amount of people who were happy with the team picked now criticising the picked team. This idea that players cant play three big games in a row is rubbish. Leinster played a ERC final,Pro 14 semifinal and Pro 14 final in consecutive weeks (maybe it would help if other players were used to that level).

                            A lot of the problems we suffered yesterday were evident against Scotland but they were poor and the weather helped us. Defensively we are too narrow and don't seem to be able to defend with width whether that is due to a lack of trust in the inside players or not I'm not sure.

                            its also amusing people wishing we would play a more attacking ball in hand style rather than one out bashing etc and blaming Joe for not doing so. If players don't play this style at club level how will they suddenly be able to do it for Ireland? The worrying thing is that it is like watching Munster playing when they get to the major games in the season.
                            Speaking of revisionism, you’ve changed your tune! What happened to your trust in Joe? If our game plan is deficient, it’s all on him. He’s had two RWC cycles and almost unrivalled access to his players to develop whatever game plan he wanted.

                            But our game plan yesterday was actually pretty solid and effective in the first half. Our defence was also good against an excellent attacking side. They did only score a single try remember.

                            The problem was that, in the conditions, we really struggled to maintain our momentum and to execute our skills in the second half.

                            Thag was largely down to selection IMO. The lads started very well but soon began to look knackered. Joe’s somewhat defensive comment in the press that Ryan was still “delivering” at the end is telling. Ryan was out on his feet and getting knocked backwards. If a guy with his engine is struggling, it’s a very bad sign.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by In Joe we trust View Post
                              At this rate of going Healy, Best, Furlong, POM should not be starting the qtr final. We have to start looking at Beirne in the back row.
                              Those lads are all very capable of delivering, as long as they aren’t flogged a few days before. We should have changed out at least one prop, the hooker, a lock and the blindside yesterday. Stick last week’s starters on the bench to come on for the last 20 if necessary.

                              Joe only planned a single change up front, and when Conan got injured he chickened out instead of backing Ruddock or Beirne. What does that tell you about his confidence in the depth he claims he’s built?

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Ron Swanson View Post


                                The ability to kick the ball back in time should not be underestimated though :p
                                Oops--Haha nice pick up ,great player in his day too mind

                                Comment

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