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RWC 2019 31 Man squad

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    Originally posted by lawrence View Post
    Joey at 15 is a good idea attacking wise, but I cant see sexton sharing the duties of first receiver when he is on the pitch.
    They did it quite a few times at Leinster so not sure why it would be an issue with Ireland.

    Comment


      Originally posted by Daithi View Post

      I don't disagree with this, and worse sides know that out powering Ireland is one key to winning against Ireland and both SA & NZ can both likely do that.

      I think Ireland need to add another few strings to their bow in their gameplan, with reinvigorated players in better form e.g. Murray, Sexton, best,etc, rather than a whole new way of playing, though I would like to see Ireland double bluff sides e.g. if sides are set up for a box kick, dummy that and then run at the wing channel instead, so have plays and dummy plays for each of Ireland's predictable patterns, and use them fluently. Joe Schmidt's teams at their best always did this, the question for me is can this side again reach a level and execution proficiency to implement this v the best in the world at a RWC. Also will JS actively rotate his squad to keep them freshest for the qf, possibly risking a loss v Samoa. Unfortunately I think the probability of both of these happening is low, hence I think Ireland are likely to get a fair beating at the qf stage e.g. by 12- 20 points. Sorry, but that's how I see it happening....unfortunately
      By "whole new way", I basically meant a move away from a reliance on contestable box kicks to win field position. That's what got badly sussed during the 6N, and we looked really stuck for exit options without it.
      "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

      "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


      "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

      Comment


        Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post

        I think it does stack up, for the reasons you yourself state. We can't win a world cup without Sexton and Murray. And that's why JS has continued to back them through patchy form. Because he knows already that his only hope of getting where he needs to rests in those two players.

        Kidney did the same with ROG in several patches.

        If we had the sort of competition the ABs have, that might be different. But we don't. And no amount of game time would have produced it in the time available.

        Carbery has 15 caps for Munster. That's the entire extent of his career as a first choice fly half.

        For this world cup, Sexton and Murray were the only show in town. And JS was right to back them.

        If they don't find form or get injured, we're ****ed. That's true. But we'd have been ****ed anyway, even with back ups given more game time.
        Doesn’t make sense.

        JS knows how good Murray and Sexton are, and he continued to ignore others even though their form
        leading up to the 6nations was better

        Carbery has started at ten for Leinster, and Ireland.

        Its easy to say they are the only chance we have when nobody else is given one. It’s the same argument that will have Rob Kearney starting at 15.

        Comment


          Originally posted by lawrence View Post

          Doesn’t make sense.

          JS knows how good Murray and Sexton are, and he continued to ignore others even though their form
          leading up to the 6nations was better

          Carbery has started at ten for Leinster, and Ireland.

          Its easy to say they are the only chance we have when nobody else is given one. It’s the same argument that will have Rob Kearney starting at 15.
          If Sexton and Murray were in form, I think he'd have looked at options. But what I'm saying makes total sense. Coaches give their essential players room to find form. They don't go looking at alternatives who can't be expected to reach the same level. It's not an unusual thing.

          It's a different argument with Kearney. Kearney is playing at his limit, and many feel that there are others who could outplay him. I'd agree with them.

          There is no fly half and no scrum half available to Ireland who come anywhere near Murray and Sexton at their best. Not even close.

          So he has sunk time into allowing them to play themselves back into form. He'll be judged on whether it's a success.

          But blooding players that no one thinks can reach the same level would be nothing more than damage limitation. What you're advocating is actually a more conservative approach than the one JS has taken, which is to bet the farm on getting his world class players firing at the right time.

          He's taken a gamble. I think it's the right one.
          "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

          "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


          "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

          Comment


            I think Henshaw to fullback could be on the cards. At least against the minnows. Schmidt has been thinking about it, as we know. It didn't work out against England but he was just back from injury and hadn't played there in years.
            ​​​​​With a few months to prepare it would be a different story.

            Henshaw already proved he is a quality fullback.


            I think Schmidt will want to bring Ali, Ringrose and Farrell to Japan also.

            Comment


              Tbf, I'd be more critical of JS for not having fully blooded ,experienced alternatives at 15 & 2 than at 9 & 10.

              Why!? Cos the incumbents at 15 & 2 are totally over the hill, and can play average at best, whereas Ireland's 9 & 10 in form are still top class.

              The chickens are looking like coming home to roost on JS as a selector at this rwc, caused by the age of his ever presents, myopic repetitive selection, and lack of innovation with players and selection in particular.

              Yes, he's been a great coach, maybe the best Irish coach ever, but he got coder syndrome with his selections ,and it's showing in his likely match day squad unfortunately....

              E.g. ideally Ireland would have 2 younger bucks coming into peaks of their careers at 2 & 15 at Rwc 19, while hoping that 8,9, & 10 would pre season train & play themselves back into top form for this tournament, with other positions e g.3, 13,& 7 working themselves out, through preseason,&/ or changes of selection, &/or both. All this should be crucial background work while an improvised game plan (that would address things like sides trying to overpower Ireland, rush defences and defence of box kicking, etc,etc,etc) is further developed and trained into the players game management.

              And lastly, Ireland's management would have to show the balls and confidence to fully rotate their side v Samoa last out, not being afraid to lose, so that squad and team Ireland would be at its absolute fittest and freshest at quarter final time.

              Alas Ireland and Ireland's management have barely ticked any of those boxes, (they have done other significant stuff tbf e.g. 2018 achievements, etc) but alas they and Ireland are looking likely to come up way short at this Rwc, despite having an easy draw (e.g group) cos of a well earned high seeding. Big pity but there you go!!!
              Last edited by Daithi; 1st-August-2019, 14:51.
              ____________________________________________
              Munster were great when they were Munster.

              alas they are just north munster now.......
              ____________________________________________

              Comment


                Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post

                If Sexton and Murray were in form, I think he'd have looked at options. But what I'm saying makes total sense. Coaches give their essential players room to find form. They don't go looking at alternatives who can't be expected to reach the same level. It's not an unusual thing.

                It's a different argument with Kearney. Kearney is playing at his limit, and many feel that there are others who could outplay him. I'd agree with them.

                There is no fly half and no scrum half available to Ireland who come anywhere near Murray and Sexton at their best. Not even close.

                So he has sunk time into allowing them to play themselves back into form. He'll be judged on whether it's a success.

                But blooding players that no one thinks can reach the same level would be nothing more than damage limitation. What you're advocating is actually a more conservative approach than the one JS has taken, which is to bet the farm on getting his world class players firing at the right time.

                He's taken a gamble. I think it's the right one.
                Joey & Cooney have all the potential to be right up there, but we will never know because they never got a chance, Carthy was given two minutes or something stupid in the 6N. It leaves no margin for error.

                We don’t have a settled experienced enough option at 9&10 or (15 for that matter) that you would feel comfortable starting against Russia & Samoa, or capable of coming on to finish out a game against Japan to give Sexton & Murray a rest, so it means either both start all group games or you roll the dice a small bit.

                I think having your eggs in one basket is a bad idea. Time will tell.

                Comment


                  Yeah, deputies at 9,10 and alternatives at 2 & 15 simply have to be used off the bench and in rotated squads in order to maximize Ireland's chances of doing their best at this RWC imho.

                  It shouldn't be rolling a dice really imho, a fresh international ready sub should nearly always be better for the last 20 minutes of a test than any player... Ireland should just do it, and also fully rotate starting line up v Samoa, etc imho.

                  Not doing these things (not using subs pro actively and rotating squads proactively) have cost Ireland dear at RWCups since 2003. It's really high time we (I.e our coaches) learned!!!
                  Last edited by Daithi; 1st-August-2019, 15:54.
                  ____________________________________________
                  Munster were great when they were Munster.

                  alas they are just north munster now.......
                  ____________________________________________

                  Comment


                    The fact that Murray and Rob have started against Italy every 6N tells you all you need to know about Joe as a selector, truly ridiculous.
                    \"Only Pienaar, Botha and Ferris would be in contention for a place on our first 15. That\'s a fact.\" - Tickettout\'s take on Ulster April 2011.

                    Comment


                      We’ve beaten the All Blacks, and England in a Grand Slam decider, without Murray. It’s been proven that we can survive without him if we have to.

                      Losing both half backs would be a huge blow but I suspect that, if Murray was fit, we could survive without Sexton (especially the out of form version we saw in the 6Ns). The problem is that none of his back ups have gotten the experience that Marmion has.

                      12 and 15 are problem positions in that neither player offers a second playmaking option. We have no variety and nobody capable of adding any.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Talking Sense View Post
                        The fact that Murray and Rob have started against Italy every 6N tells you all you need to know about Joe as a selector, truly ridiculous.
                        yeah, that's pretty terrible when you think about it. Schmidt talked the talk about getting guys experience in big games but he didn't walk the walk unless forced to it, and even then, one mistake and you're done for. Sean Cronin had a bad day throwing and that was that while other guys get to play their way into form. I get that guys like sexton and murray have proven more, but the double standard there has got to rankle some guys, especially when Sexton and Kearney are close to the end of their careers yet are given chance after chance to find form.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Talking Sense View Post
                          The fact that Murray and Rob have started against Italy every 6N tells you all you need to know about Joe as a selector, truly ridiculous.
                          That pretty much sums it all up. Someone will be along with a stat about how many players we used in the 6 nations but the reality is that competition for places only exists once players are injured.


                          Comment


                            Very interesting viewpoints on the RWC squad - https://dementedmole.com/2019/07/29/...nds-rwc-squad/

                            Ireland RWC Squad 2019 (17/14)
                            Hookers (3) Age Caps Seasons RWCs
                            1 Rory Best 37 120 14 4
                            2 Sean Cronin 33 73 10 3
                            3 Niall Scannell 27 17 2 1
                            Props (5)
                            4 Tadhg Furlong 26 35 4 1
                            5 Cian Healy 31 94 10 3
                            6 Jack McGrath 29 62 6 2
                            7 Andy Porter 23 20 2 1
                            8 John Ryan 31 21 3 1
                            Second-rows (4)
                            9 Iain Henderson 27 50 7 2
                            10 Devin Toner 33 70 9 2
                            11 James Ryan 23 21 2 1
                            12 Jean Kleyn 26 3 1 0
                            Back-rows (5)
                            13 Josh van der Flier 26 20 3 1
                            14 P O’Mahony 29 60 7 1
                            15 CJ Stander 29 37 3 1
                            16 Rhys Ruddock 28 24 9 1
                            17 Jack Conan 27 17 4 0
                            Scrum-halves (3)
                            18 Conor Murray 30 75 8 3
                            19 Kieran Marmion 27 32 6 1
                            20 John Cooney 29 10 2 1
                            Out-halves (2)
                            21 Joey Carbery 23 24 2 1
                            22 Jonny Sexton 34 86 10 3
                            Centres (4)
                            23 Will Addison 27 10 1 1
                            24 Bundee Aki 29 20 2 1
                            25 Rob Henshaw 26 44 6 2
                            26 Gary Ringrose 24 25 3 1
                            Back-Three (5)
                            27 Keith Earls 31 80 11 3
                            28 Jordan Larmour 22 17 2 1
                            29 Jacob Stockdale 23 23 2 1
                            30 Andy Conway 28 15 2 1
                            31 Rob Kearney 33 94 13 3

                            Comment


                              Jeez, did Farrell not get selected!?

                              That's ridiculous, he's our best centre by a margin when fit imho.
                              ____________________________________________
                              Munster were great when they were Munster.

                              alas they are just north munster now.......
                              ____________________________________________

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Daithi View Post
                                Jeez, did Farrell not get selected!?

                                That's ridiculous, he's our best centre by a margin when fit imho.
                                Don’t see that happening. If Addison does go it will more likely be instead or Conway or Larmour in my opinion.

                                Also i don’t see Kilcoyne not going based on last seasons form, unless McGrath is pulling up trees in training

                                Comment

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