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    Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post

    It will all boil down to whether Joe et al can kick on.

    I am genuinely wondering whether the loss of Leavy, to some extent, has undone our game plan. The root of the issue for me is that England in particular were able to murder our ball and slow it down so much. As soon as we lose momentum there our game plan is dead in the water.

    For a season, he was genuinely one of the best opensides I've ever seen play. Totally phenomenal in his impact.

    Van Der Flier has been very impressive since coming back though so hopefully he can plug the gap.

    I genuinely think that man for man in Sexton, Henshaw, Aki, Earls, Ringrose, Farrell, Stockdale, Conway we have the makings of a very, very dangerous attack. Down to the coaches to get it moving.
    some of that has got to be on Murray. it didn't go unnoticed throughout the season that Munster seemed to get far quicker ball when Matthewson was playing. Murray has to get the ball out and passed away quicker than he usually does b/c the refs aren't policing the offside line.

    Comment


      Originally posted by Finnegan79 View Post

      some of that has got to be on Murray. it didn't go unnoticed throughout the season that Munster seemed to get far quicker ball when Matthewson was playing. Murray has to get the ball out and passed away quicker than he usually does b/c the refs aren't policing the offside line.
      Murray and Alby are entirely different types of scrum half- the lack of a confident playmaker at OH (unlike Sexton) all season (TB and JJ did ok at various stages but hardly controlled things), Albys busy style gets us going more- although not necessarily very far forward- (a fully fit) Murray with a controlling OH who carries his own threat as well, is a very different matter.

      Comment


        Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post


        Cronin couldn't hit a cow's arse with a banjo. He will always be a liability, and never more than a bench option.

        Stander is the best back row carrier in Europe bar Vunipola. The fact that Munster and Ireland have deployed him as a hod carrier is neither here nor there. He's a far, far better 8 than Conan.
        My point is that if you want to play an open/running style of play to make the best of our backline then you need forwards who are comfortable carrying in space, who know how to run angles, pass the ball under pressure and look to hit shoulders. Cronin is not the best lineout thrower but his carrying and mobility is up so far superior to any other option. If you play Best etc then this limits the ability to play that style.

        Stander is a good carrier if you want someone to charge straight into bodies but he doesn't take a step to try to hit a shoulder or pass the ball coming to the line and very rarely throws an offload which again doesn't fit an open style of play.

        Comment


          Originally posted by In Joe we trust View Post

          My point is that if you want to play an open/running style of play to make the best of our backline then you need forwards who are comfortable carrying in space, who know how to run angles, pass the ball under pressure and look to hit shoulders. Cronin is not the best lineout thrower but his carrying and mobility is up so far superior to any other option. If you play Best etc then this limits the ability to play that style.

          Stander is a good carrier if you want someone to charge straight into bodies but he doesn't take a step to try to hit a shoulder or pass the ball coming to the line and very rarely throws an offload which again doesn't fit an open style of play.
          Cronin isn't the best lineout thrower...and that’s where it ends. That's why he will most likely won’t start. There’s a question there whether he will even bench. Will Schmidt go for the higher guarantee of set piece with Scannell.
          This is another level, this is about doing it at the top level, that extra 1%. Cronin might have played brilliantly against the likes of Glasgow, but at the end of the day, Ireland is another step up.

          His weaknesses, particularly in the line out, is why he’s not good enough at the moment at this level. The lineout is a hooker’s bread and butter. It’s like a SH who has a slow pass. There’s no positivity in the bonus ability of having a great step if you can’t hit Toner or POM in a line out. The set piece needs to be excellent, nearly a given.
          The Maul is Back!! LONG LIVE THE MAUL!!

          Stringer is bigger even than his own immense shadow. Pound for pound, he is the best tackler in the world. If you put him into bag of cats he\'d come out without a scratch. He was hit very late for Murphy\'s try. And when he got up, as we knew he would, the crowd cried his name as if he had just fixed the economy.Billy Keane-After Munster\'s famous loss to the AB\'s.

          The Bull-Truly irreplaceable, a mountain of a man. 100 caps!!

          Comment


            Originally posted by Stringer9 View Post

            Cronin isn't the best lineout thrower...and that’s where it ends. That's why he will most likely won’t start. There’s a question there whether he will even bench. Will Schmidt go for the higher guarantee of set piece with Scannell.
            This is another level, this is about doing it at the top level, that extra 1%. Cronin might have played brilliantly against the likes of Glasgow, but at the end of the day, Ireland is another step up.

            His weaknesses, particularly in the line out, is why he’s not good enough at the moment at this level. The lineout is a hooker’s bread and butter. It’s like a SH who has a slow pass. There’s no positivity in the bonus ability of having a great step if you can’t hit Toner or POM in a line out. The set piece needs to be excellent, nearly a given.
            Best is also a very patchy thrower, and I’d worry in a close game where we needed the set piece to be solid throughout, whether I’d have Cronin on the bench (Best starts - unfortunately). It’ll be fine against teams where we’ll have loads of possession and attacking opportunities- Cronins mobility will probably see him starting a couple of these. I find it remarkable that a professional at his level is such a bad thrower- but he is, and when it comes to small margins that’s not a luxury we can afford.

            Comment


              Originally posted by jagawayagain View Post

              Murray and Alby are entirely different types of scrum half- the lack of a confident playmaker at OH (unlike Sexton) all season (TB and JJ did ok at various stages but hardly controlled things), Albys busy style gets us going more- although not necessarily very far forward- (a fully fit) Murray with a controlling OH who carries his own threat as well, is a very different matter.
              this is true to some extent. it doesn't matter who is at 10 if Murray doesn't get to the ruck and get the ball out quickly, the defense of a good team will swarm the 10. he had sexton against England and Wales and Ireland got stuffed far too much. He has to be faster, just like Sexton has to play a bit deeper and get the ball to carriers who aren't standing 2 yards in front of tackers rushing at them. it makes such a difference. the carrier can then pass it wider, hopefully creating space.

              Comment


                Originally posted by In Joe we trust View Post

                My point is that if you want to play an open/running style of play to make the best of our backline then you need forwards who are comfortable carrying in space, who know how to run angles, pass the ball under pressure and look to hit shoulders. Cronin is not the best lineout thrower but his carrying and mobility is up so far superior to any other option. If you play Best etc then this limits the ability to play that style.

                Stander is a good carrier if you want someone to charge straight into bodies but he doesn't take a step to try to hit a shoulder or pass the ball coming to the line and very rarely throws an offload which again doesn't fit an open style of play.
                Stander can do those things, we've seen it here and there, its just that Ireland and Munster play risk averse rugby, they'd rather get tackled and recycle than try for any sort of offloads. it is crazy and the 6N should have been a wake up call that you have to let these guys use what skills they can develop in training instead of planning to slug it out every time they take the pitch.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Finnegan79 View Post

                  this is true to some extent. it doesn't matter who is at 10 if Murray doesn't get to the ruck and get the ball out quickly, the defense of a good team will swarm the 10. he had sexton against England and Wales and Ireland got stuffed far too much. He has to be faster, just like Sexton has to play a bit deeper and get the ball to carriers who aren't standing 2 yards in front of tackers rushing at them. it makes such a difference. the carrier can then pass it wider, hopefully creating space.
                  We lost against England and Wales because we were dismantled up front and our kicking game ended up being nullified by the slow/poor quality ball and their greater ability to compete /defend/block our follow up when the ball was in the air. I don’t think Murray is slow to the rucks, but the ball is certainly taking an age to get from the base of the ruck into play. The question is why- is he thinking slower? Is his pass slower? Are the options he wants not available, being closed down quickly? It’s important to know why, because that helps us to know what it is needs to change. Murray is fortunate, like many outstanding players in other sports who seem to play effortlessly, and have more time to play than other players, sometimes it can look like he should be getting a move on, but I think his languid physique can be deceptive. I agree “it’s” not working as well as it used to- for me the two questions are what the “it” is, and what can we do about it.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Finnegan79 View Post

                    Stander can do those things, we've seen it here and there, its just that Ireland and Munster play risk averse rugby, they'd rather get tackled and recycle than try for any sort of offloads. it is crazy and the 6N should have been a wake up call that you have to let these guys use what skills they can develop in training instead of planning to slug it out every time they take the pitch.
                    Not so sure that's true. Stander remains one of the most powerful carriers into contact, but he is a little slower in the open than most No 8s, his handling is not always great, and in contact he doesn't seem to try to get his arms free (many others seem to, even if there is no offload on, just as standard practise of taking contact). While I'm sure he could do a lot more if given license, I think the original point was that if that if you want a more fluid approach, there are others more suited (and to be fair to Conan, he has already passed what I would have thought was his ceiling - seems to be constantly improving)

                    Personally though, I think this change of approach only works when the whole team is humming and takes time to adopt . . . so no chance of it happening by the world cup.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by blueberry View Post

                      Not so sure that's true. Stander remains one of the most powerful carriers into contact, but he is a little slower in the open than most No 8s, his handling is not always great, and in contact he doesn't seem to try to get his arms free (many others seem to, even if there is no offload on, just as standard practise of taking contact). While I'm sure he could do a lot more if given license, I think the original point was that if that if you want a more fluid approach, there are others more suited (and to be fair to Conan, he has already passed what I would have thought was his ceiling - seems to be constantly improving)

                      Personally though, I think this change of approach only works when the whole team is humming and takes time to adopt . . . so no chance of it happening by the world cup.
                      Would love to see the evidence that Stander is ‘slower in the open that most No.8’.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by jagawayagain View Post

                        Would love to see the evidence that Stander is ‘slower in the open that most No.8’.
                        'twas an impression formed from seeing him caught a few times so went looking and his try against Australia did seem to have everyone gaining on him . . . and then I found his 2012 try against Glasgow . . . I might admittedly have to revise my assessment :-)

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by blueberry View Post

                          'twas an impression formed from seeing him caught a few times so went looking and his try against Australia did seem to have everyone gaining on him . . . and then I found his 2012 try against Glasgow . . . I might admittedly have to revise my assessment :-)
                          He was a very impressive open field runner when he arrived first powerful, and fast- he doesn’t seem to have had/made those opportunities in the last few years- although every other aspect of his play has improved. Hard to judge from individual games, who knows what niggles a guy is carrying. I’d presume there are the equivalent of ‘bleep’ test data - which would be fascinating.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by jagawayagain View Post

                            He was a very impressive open field runner when he arrived first powerful, and fast- he doesn’t seem to have had/made those opportunities in the last few years- although every other aspect of his play has improved. Hard to judge from individual games, who knows what niggles a guy is carrying. I’d presume there are the equivalent of ‘bleep’ test data - which would be fascinating.
                            He’s a fair bit heavier now I’d say. Bulked up a bit. Wouldn’t be as quick as he once was but he can still shift.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post


                              Cronin couldn't hit a cow's arse with a banjo. He will always be a liability, and never more than a bench option.

                              Stander is the best back row carrier in Europe bar Vunipola. The fact that Munster and Ireland have deployed him as a hod carrier is neither here nor there. He's a far, far better 8 than Conan.
                              Very bold statement given Sergio Parisse and Louis Picamoles are still knocking about
                              Only fools and drunks argue over everything. If you don’t have a hangover the next day you’re not the drunk...

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Stringer9 View Post

                                Cronin isn't the best lineout thrower...and that’s where it ends. That's why he will most likely won’t start. There’s a question there whether he will even bench. Will Schmidt go for the higher guarantee of set piece with Scannell.
                                This is another level, this is about doing it at the top level, that extra 1%. Cronin might have played brilliantly against the likes of Glasgow, but at the end of the day, Ireland is another step up.

                                His weaknesses, particularly in the line out, is why he’s not good enough at the moment at this level. The lineout is a hooker’s bread and butter. It’s like a SH who has a slow pass. There’s no positivity in the bonus ability of having a great step if you can’t hit Toner or POM in a line out. The set piece needs to be excellent, nearly a given.
                                Dan Coles isn't the best lineout thrower either but NZ look at the full package he delivers and decide it's worth missing the odd lineout. My point was if people were looking to play a more open style of footballer you can't do that with Best at 2.

                                Comment

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