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Leinster 2018/19

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    Originally posted by Waterfordlad View Post

    Have you been drinking again, Malcolm?
    Sadly no, this is as good as it gets
    Only fools and drunks argue over everything. If you don’t have a hangover the next day you’re not the drunk...

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      Originally posted by Waterfordlad View Post

      Have you been drinking again, Malcolm?
      I think there might be a few on here would could do the necessary trigonometry....

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        Originally posted by LongtimeLurker View Post
        The Indo cementing their reputation as a rag trying to outwum Wumiskey & the IT with their breathless reporting of the scandal.
        Agreed. I saw another article somewhere (cannot recall if Indo or Times) giving our because Leinster/IRFU had not reported either assault to the Gardai. I wasn't aware that there is any requirement to so report, where adults are involved. Mandatory reporting at underage levels is an entirely different matter, but in my ignorance I thought that adults are responsible for making any such reports themselves. And let's not get into whether there might be any moral or ethical reason to report, if there isn't a legal or regulatory obligation - that way lies a very subjective nightmare.

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          I won't go into detail because I respect the people who run this forum and the responsibilities they take on, but incidents like the ones being reported now aren't unknown in Dublin. There are plenty of people, even fans of the sport, who will run from rugby players on nights out like the plague for similar reasons. Some aren't so fortunate since, despite what the newspapers would have you think and the entitlement with which some of them carry themselvres, 95% of people in Dublin wouldn't recognise a rugby player if they urinated on them. I'm sure most of the rugby players are lovely but unfortunately some aren't.

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            Originally posted by whimpersnap View Post
            I won't go into detail because I respect the people who run this forum and the responsibilities they take on, but incidents like the ones being reported now aren't unknown in Dublin. There are plenty of people, even fans of the sport, who will run from rugby players on nights out like the plague for similar reasons. Some aren't so fortunate since, despite what the newspapers would have you think and the entitlement with which some of them carry themselvres, 95% of people in Dublin wouldn't recognise a rugby player if they urinated on them. I'm sure most of the rugby players are lovely but unfortunately some aren't.
            Around the time of the infamous trial up north there was a psychologist interviewed on the radio that made a very valid point, she used some bigger word but the gist of her point was that a lot of rugby players (and other sports) are essentially in a lot of ways still school kids.

            They are part of a team group on school teams and go directly into academy/ underage provincial and/or national groups and then into senior teams, they never exist outside that bubble long enough and the behaviors that are the norm from school carry over into the other grades. The players only have role models within the group, and behaviors is deemed acceptable or not by the reaction of that group.

            Essentially a lot of these guys just don’t grow up in some ways and when you add alcohol it certainly won’t help.

            I didn’t agree fully with what she was saying because people have friends and family outside of rugby, but there must be a high level of groupthink within squads that operate at such high levels.

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              Originally posted by lawrence View Post

              Around the time of the infamous trial up north there was a psychologist interviewed on the radio that made a very valid point, she used some bigger word but the gist of her point was that a lot of rugby players (and other sports) are essentially in a lot of ways still school kids.

              They are part of a team group on school teams and go directly into academy/ underage provincial and/or national groups and then into senior teams, they never exist outside that bubble long enough and the behaviors that are the norm from school carry over into the other grades. The players only have role models within the group, and behaviors is deemed acceptable or not by the reaction of that group.

              Essentially a lot of these guys just don’t grow up in some ways and when you add alcohol it certainly won’t help.

              I didn’t agree fully with what she was saying because people have friends and family outside of rugby, but there must be a high level of groupthink within squads that operate at such high levels.
              You see similar things in soccer with lads who go away to England at 16, but generally the crash back to earth comes a lot quicker when you're back in Ireland without a Leaving Cert and getting 50 quid for playing Leinster Senior League and looking for a real job. Not quite the same when your safety net for failing to make it with Leinster is a cushy job in an accounting firm or estate agency and Lansdowne throwing you 500 euro a week to run in some tries against amateurs.

              Comment


                Originally posted by whimpersnap View Post

                You see similar things in soccer with lads who go away to England at 16, but generally the crash back to earth comes a lot quicker when you're back in Ireland without a Leaving Cert and getting 50 quid for playing Leinster Senior League and looking for a real job. Not quite the same when your safety net for failing to make it with Leinster is a cushy job in an accounting firm or estate agency and Lansdowne throwing you 500 euro a week to run in some tries against amateurs.
                It is very different, but I wouldnt criticise rugby for looking after those who don’t make, or for those who play the game when young not sacrificing their education.

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                  Originally posted by whimpersnap View Post

                  You see similar things in soccer with lads who go away to England at 16, but generally the crash back to earth comes a lot quicker when you're back in Ireland without a Leaving Cert and getting 50 quid for playing Leinster Senior League and looking for a real job. Not quite the same when your safety net for failing to make it with Leinster is a cushy job in an accounting firm or estate agency and Lansdowne throwing you 500 euro a week to run in some tries against amateurs.
                  Not the point I was making, when young fella don’t get their behavior checked by the ‘real world’ because they are constantly involved in these groups it means they can have a different set of norms to wider society.

                  What at your saying can be generalized down to socioeconomic factors. Soccer players tend to come from lower socioeconomic backgrounds and rugby from higher where more focus is put on education, it’s one factor as well as age.

                  I heard that Hodnett turned down an academy or development contract with Munster because he wants to stay in UCC and complete his studies, which is fine once he is training properly because at 22-24 when graduated he has plenty of time to make senior, but 22-24 is seen as past it in soccer if a fella hasn’t made the grade, so a fella hoping to make a breakthrough with a premier league club couldn’t consider staying in UCC

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by lawrence View Post

                    Not the point I was making, when young fella don’t get their behavior checked by the ‘real world’ because they are constantly involved in these groups it means they can have a different set of norms to wider society.

                    What at your saying can be generalized down to socioeconomic factors. Soccer players tend to come from lower socioeconomic backgrounds and rugby from higher where more focus is put on education, it’s one factor as well as age.

                    I heard that Hodnett turned down an academy or development contract with Munster because he wants to stay in UCC and complete his studies, which is fine once he is training properly because at 22-24 when graduated he has plenty of time to make senior, but 22-24 is seen as past it in soccer if a fella hasn’t made the grade, so a fella hoping to make a breakthrough with a premier league club couldn’t consider staying in UCC
                    Agree with you Lawrence, on both points- both the ‘groupthink’ that pervades any tight, committed, closely selected group, and the resultant difference in what is regarded as ‘normal’; but also the protective effect of education. I didn’t know that about Hodgnett, I hope it doesn’t hamper his rugby development, but well done both parties in supporting this. It’s worth noting that a ‘premiership’ career would be almost impossible post degree- indeed even post Leaving/A levels.

                    I have been lucky enough to work with one of the top football academies in England, and the guys there have been on a path from 8, recruited world wide, parents move with them and are found jobs even before the child can be contracted, and guys are on six figures and more in their teens without, according to coaches, any chance of breaking through to the top side. They are sold on in their late teens. They do have a few days a week in ‘education’ but we’re talking about doing a few subjects that might be GCSE/ inter level. There are exceptions, of course, but they are the very very unusual ones.

                    inevitably our dependence on the school’s system to produce rugby talent, and (generally) the types of school that play rugby, means many players have come from advantaged backgrounds. This is one of the reasons I really want the club game to be heavily supported, especially at junior level, by the Provinces. It’s a game that generally speaking produces very decent men and women- I want everyone to be able to benefit from that.

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                      Without starting a rumor mill on Hodnett I think he is still under contract, it’s not that he is gone from the setup.

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                        Originally posted by jagawayagain View Post

                        Agree with you Lawrence, on both points- both the ‘groupthink’ that pervades any tight, committed, closely selected group, and the resultant difference in what is regarded as ‘normal’; but also the protective effect of education. I didn’t know that about Hodgnett, I hope it doesn’t hamper his rugby development, but well done both parties in supporting this. It’s worth noting that a ‘premiership’ career would be almost impossible post degree- indeed even post Leaving/A levels.

                        I have been lucky enough to work with one of the top football academies in England, and the guys there have been on a path from 8, recruited world wide, parents move with them and are found jobs even before the child can be contracted, and guys are on six figures and more in their teens without, according to coaches, any chance of breaking through to the top side. They are sold on in their late teens. They do have a few days a week in ‘education’ but we’re talking about doing a few subjects that might be GCSE/ inter level. There are exceptions, of course, but they are the very very unusual ones.

                        inevitably our dependence on the school’s system to produce rugby talent, and (generally) the types of school that play rugby, means many players have come from advantaged backgrounds. This is one of the reasons I really want the club game to be heavily supported, especially at junior level, by the Provinces. It’s a game that generally speaking produces very decent men and women- I want everyone to be able to benefit from that.


                        Some of this talk is really just over complicating the analysis of the incidents that occurred in Dublin, because it’s a lot simpler.

                        Some people just can’t handle their drink, they get messy after it and you don’t need to be a professional athlete for that to be the case.

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                          Originally posted by lawrence View Post
                          Without starting a rumor mill on Hodnett I think he is still under contract, it’s not that he is gone from the setup.
                          what contract? academy?

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                            SOB 'sanctioned' by the IRFU, within the terms of his contract following pissgate in Cassidy's
                            Nulla semper amicus, servivit mihi, in iniuriam mihi neminem quem non persolvi

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Sulla View Post
                              SOB 'sanctioned' by the IRFU, within the terms of his contract following pissgate in Cassidy's

                              I have it on good authority that he has to wear pull ups on future any nights out.

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