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Fun with figures- tv deal comparisons Pro 12, AP, Top 14

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    #31
    Fun with figures- tv deal comparisons Pro 12, AP, Top 14

    Originally posted by ormond lad View Post
    Its us as well who haven't got more commercial partners. We all have a role in that. Your attitude against the organisers is extremely tiring at this stage. Its a revenue stream to irish rugby and they wanted more of a role not simply controlling it. The 6Nations and International rugby is still the primary and principal revenue stream for irish rugby and if that is impacted its a major issue but it hasn't.
    You either can't see or don't want to see what PRL/ LNR are doing. When Europe starts paying more than the guaranteed £20 million I will await your post on the matter, but it won't happen anytime soon.
    Last edited by the plastic paddy; 28th-December-2015, 08:38.

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      #32
      Originally posted by ormond lad View Post
      Italians never will or should move to play in France. Theyd have to enter proD2 or lower to begin with and that wouldn't help them.
      They'll do whatever suits them but I'd say that their long term ambitions don't involve remaining in the pro 12.


      Originally posted by ormond lad View Post
      There isn't any hope at all of a movement of players between sides across borders as the unions run the sides and developing players for their nation is so important. Teams having same budget wont happen either.
      Sadly I think that you are probably right.
      One advantage that the pro 12 has over the other leagues though is the fact that there are no wealthy club owners aiming to create an oligopoly.
      If the unions agreed to do whatever is necessary to make the league a level playing field, it would make it much more commercially attractive and thus better able to stand on its own feet.


      Originally posted by ormond lad View Post
      Reducing the number of games doesn't and wouldn't help standards or LTPD....The development of younger players would be affected by less games in the domestic league as would competitiveness in the European league.
      It would raise the standard of the league by eliminating games like the upcoming one against Ulster where
      just as many points are on offer despite the fact that, by design, both clubs will be fielding weakened sides because of international call-ups.
      This sort of thing devalues the league in the eyes of everyone, tv and fans alike.
      (In England, for example, the fielding of weakened teams has severely damaged the FA Cup.)
      A proper league would only schedule the number of games its clubs can be expected to put out full strength teams for.
      It's not somewhere for the reserves to get their games in.


      Originally posted by ormond lad View Post
      Dividing the league into 3 divisions doesn't appeal to me.
      It's primarily a mechanism for maintaining home and away games for derby fixtures while reducing the number of fixtures overall. It also aims to make a virtue of the international nature of the pro 12.
      Last edited by Pythagoras; 28th-December-2015, 13:48.

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        #33
        It was a complete hijacking by the Nigels. They first launched a propaganda campaign and then went about dividing the Celtic unions. I'd like to think the unions can strike back in the future and would hope they're planning to put up a fight.

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          #34
          Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post
          You either can't see or don't want to see what PRL/ LNR are doing. When Europe starts paying more than the guaranteed £20 million I will await your post on the matter, but it won't happen anytime soon.
          No I simply don't buy the 'them guys are up to nothing good at any time' argument.
          Originally posted by Pythagoras View Post
          They'll do whatever suits them but I'd say that their long term ambitions don't involve remaining in the pro 12.
          They wont go to France as they'd have to enter at a low level as I don't see any way theyd be let into top14 and why would they move to enter the proD2?

          Sadly I think that you are probably right.
          One advantage that the pro 12 has over the other leagues though is the fact that there are no wealthy club owners aiming to create an oligopoly.
          If the unions agreed to do whatever is necessary to make the league a level playing field, it would make it much more commercially attractive and thus better able to stand on its own feet.
          How much can you do to make it a level playing field? What do you want changed to make it more level and then more viable commercially.
          It would raise the standard of the league by eliminating games like the upcoming one against Ulster where just as many points are on offer despite the fact that, by design, both clubs will be fielding weakened sides because of international call-ups.
          This sort of thing devalues the league in the eyes of everyone, tv and fans alike.
          (In England, for example, the fielding of weakened teams has severely damaged the FA Cup.) A proper league would only schedule the number of games its clubs can be expected to put out full strength teams for.
          It's not somewhere for the reserves to get their games in.
          Reducing games doesn't help. We play 28 games a season and then up to 5 more. The way IRFU want things with National team and preference for that you wont see full strength teams more. Reducing number of games doesn't help development of players either.
          Originally posted by dropkick View Post
          It was a complete hijacking by the Nigels. They first launched a propaganda campaign and then went about dividing the Celtic unions. I'd like to think the unions can strike back in the future and would hope they're planning to put up a fight.
          It wasn't and many of their calls/demands were fair enough. How they did it wasn't right and how do see unions striking back and what would be point if it affected funds for rest of game outside the pro game?

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            #35
            Fun with figures- tv deal comparisons Pro 12, AP, Top 14

            [QUOTE=ormond lad;1559829]Ormond Lad: "No I simply don't buy the 'them guys are up to nothing good at any time' argument."

            So why did PRL/ LNR feel they needed to destroy the ERC? Every single demand they had over finance, qualification and the stupid reduction to 20 teams was conceded but still they bribed the SRU to guarantee the destruction of the ERC and PRL's massive bung. Madigan is gone to France, Zebo and Murray will be following and PRL/LNR's aim of Celtic rugby being a feeder system to the premiership/ T14 will be well under way.

            When they have enough players from the Celtic nations playing in England and France they will demand that the six nations/ November internationals are moved/ curtailed, thereby hobbling the Unions' income further.

            Comment


              #36
              Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post
              So why did PRL/ LNR feel they needed to destroy the ERC? Every single demand they had over finance, qualification and the stupid reduction to 20 teams was conceded but still they bribed the SRU to guarantee the destruction of the ERC and PRL's massive bung. Madigan is gone to France, Zebo and Murray will be following and PRL/LNR's aim of Celtic rugby being a feeder system to the premiership/ T14 will be well under way.

              When they have enough players from the Celtic nations playing in England and France they will demand that the six nations/ November internationals are moved/ curtailed, thereby hobbling the Unions' income further.
              So changes could be made that otherwise wouldn't. The change to 20 teams has been great. It helps the pro12. Improves the challenge cup and top tier cup.
              Madigan leaving Leinster is right for him and Leinster still have Sexton and Ross Byrne for 10 amongst others.
              No way at all to say SZ/CM are off. Celtic Rugby isn't and wont ever be a feeder system to the other leagues.
              The clubs wont ever be able to get 6Ns/internationals moved.

              Comment


                #37
                Originally posted by ormond lad View Post
                So changes could be made that otherwise wouldn't. The change to 20 teams has been great. It helps the pro12. Improves the challenge cup and top tier cup.
                Madigan leaving Leinster is right for him and Leinster still have Sexton and Ross Byrne for 10 amongst others.
                No way at all to say SZ/CM are off. Celtic Rugby isn't and wont ever be a feeder system to the other leagues.
                The clubs wont ever be able to get 6Ns/internationals moved.
                The change to 20 teams was agreed by ERC, as was qualification and equal distribution.

                The challenge cup is nothing like the tournament it replaced. For a start there are fewer teams in it than there were previously. Secondly, not having second placed teams from the Heineken involved in the knock out stages has diminished the quality. They have, at least accepted that a place in the main tournament for the challenge cup winner is essential.

                I would bet serious money that the NH season will have fundamentally changed by 2020, with the six nations and November internationals moved to their detriment and the clubs benefit.

                Comment


                  #38
                  Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post
                  They have, at least accepted that a place in the main tournament for the challenge cup winner is essential.
                  Emmm - don't get your hopes up. That was agreed for this year only because the World Cup curtailed the season which meant there wasn't time to have the play offs for the last spot (which happened last year). It's as likely that they will go back to the playoff system with the 7th placed teams from the three leagues rather than the winner of the minor comp gaining an extra spot.

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post
                    The change to 20 teams was agreed by ERC, as was qualification and equal distribution.

                    The challenge cup is nothing like the tournament it replaced. For a start there are fewer teams in it than there were previously. Secondly, not having second placed teams from the Heineken involved in the knock out stages has diminished the quality. They have, at least accepted that a place in the main tournament for the challenge cup winner is essential.

                    I would bet serious money that the NH season will have fundamentally changed by 2020, with the six nations and November internationals moved to their detriment and the clubs benefit.
                    Change to 20 teams and qualification has helped the pro12. Challenge Cup is stronger on paper and not having second placed teams drop down doesn't help it but if incentives for succeeding in it improve it should help.
                    I don't see 6 nations moving or November Internationals. You have a serious delusion about all activities of private owned clubs. By taking on those internationals the private owned clubs would be taking on unions/World Rugby like nothing before in their recent attempts to bring about change and I don't see them succeeding.

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by ormond lad View Post
                      So changes could be made that otherwise wouldn't. The change to 20 teams has been great. It helps the pro12. Improves the challenge cup and top tier cup.
                      Madigan leaving Leinster is right for him and Leinster still have Sexton and Ross Byrne for 10 amongst others.
                      No way at all to say SZ/CM are off. Celtic Rugby isn't and wont ever be a feeder system to the other leagues.
                      The clubs wont ever be able to get 6Ns/internationals moved.
                      I have to agree. The HEC was too bloated. The current competition is a definite improvement and its up to us to improve our standards. However the distribution of wealth is the issue and it's not a level playing field . Long term the Irish provinces are looking down an oligopoly route with rich benefactors becoming unofficial owners of the provincial franchises.

                      The Pro 12 is the problem child. The new qualification structure for the Champions Cup has been good. However the lack of competitiveness of the Italian sides and the Dragons have diminished the brand. How that gets solved is anyone's guess
                      I always knew Madigan was a closet Scrum Half. Ignore All things that suggest Continuity.

                      Comment


                        #41
                        There is nothing to sell. They are wholly owned subsidiaries of irish Rugby
                        My computer thinks I'm gay
                        What's the difference anyway
                        When all the people do all day
                        Is stare into a phone

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Originally posted by ormond lad View Post
                          Change to 20 teams and qualification has helped the pro12. Challenge Cup is stronger on paper and not having second placed teams drop down doesn't help it but if incentives for succeeding in it improve it should help.
                          I don't see 6 nations moving or November Internationals. You have a serious delusion about all activities of private owned clubs. By taking on those internationals the private owned clubs would be taking on unions/World Rugby like nothing before in their recent attempts to bring about change and I don't see them succeeding.
                          The clubs have already taken on the Unions, and beaten them, to take control of European club rugby.

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Originally posted by The Outlaw View Post
                            I have to agree. The HEC was too bloated. The current competition is a definite improvement and its up to us to improve our standards. However the distribution of wealth is the issue and it's not a level playing field. Long term the Irish provinces are looking down an oligopoly route with rich benefactors becoming unofficial owners of the provincial franchises.

                            The Pro 12 is the problem child. The new qualification structure for the Champions Cup has been good. However the lack of competitiveness of the Italian sides and the Dragons have diminished the brand. How that gets solved is anyone's guess
                            What do you want done about distribution of wealth? I don't see benefactors coming in as unofficial owners and the IRFU wont give up power
                            Pro12 has improved but we need to give it more time to see how Italians etc do with this new system

                            Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post
                            The clubs have already taken on the Unions, and beaten them, to take control of European club rugby.
                            But they haven't taken on the international game and that is very different. Taking on the main income source that keeps the sport alive in most of the unions is entirely different to the provincial game.

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Fun with figures- tv deal comparisons Pro 12, AP, Top 14

                              Originally posted by ormond lad View Post
                              What do you want done about distribution of wealth? I don't see benefactors coming in as unofficial owners and the IRFU wont give up power
                              Pro12 has improved but we need to give it more time to see how Italians etc do with this new system

                              But they haven't taken on the international game and that is very different. Taking on the main income source that keeps the sport alive in most of the unions is entirely different to the provincial game.
                              When French and English teams are full of players from all the other unions( Madigan just gone now on top of Butler, JJ, POC etc)the clubs will turn around and advice the Unions that they may have players on the clubs' terms. Much as is already happening with PRL fining their members who release players back for international duty. There will be nothing the Unions can do about it because they cannot pay anything like the wages the clubs can. PRL are already skirmishing over next year's Lions release which has rendered the tour a bit of a nonsense before it even starts. Now the clubs have cross border control they can do exactly as they please and the Unions have not got any leverage to do anything about it.
                              Last edited by the plastic paddy; 29th-December-2015, 19:35.

                              Comment


                                #45
                                This article makes interesting reading.
                                Firstly it seems to confirm my suspicion that all Ireland is lumped in with Britain in the UK rights bidding process for the English Premier League.
                                The total deal for 2016 to 2019 (sky and BT/Setanta) for this is £5.1 billion or £1.7 billion a year.
                                This has to be funded from 5 million Sky Sports subscribers and an unknown number of BT/Setanta subscribers.
                                The population of the 2 islands combined is 68.7 million while the total population of Ireland north and south is 6.4 million.
                                All things being equal this suggests that Irish tv subscribers will be putting £158 million a year into the English Premier League over the next 3 years or nearly half a billion pounds in total.
                                Last edited by Pythagoras; 30th-December-2015, 08:31.

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