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IRFU must now think beyond Pro12

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  • Doodle Bug
    replied
    Originally posted by whimpersnap View Post
    You've been pulled up on this before, Wasp. Paul Rees belatedly learned that the SRU had non-executive directors, put 2 and 2 together and got 50. The SRU decided to back the RCC because they thought they'd end up in crisis if European rugby stopped, not because some suit told them it was in their long-term interest.


    This is just nonsense. There wasn't a "Celtic front" based on some shared Celticness, but the Celtic unions were very much united in their belief that a union-backed game was the best for rugby as a whole and for them individually. The PRL and its supporters have pointed to it time and time again.


    I'm sure the Welsh will delighted to hear that they're basically English.


    Nobody said they were. The unions all have their own individual interests. The IRFU have been clear in their support for a union-backed game because it has the interests of the worldwide community at heart and because it helps the minority against the majority.
    What do you think non-executive directors do? They provide oversight and advice for the executive directors when they have to make big decisions and tend to come without any baggage, self interest or emotional and political attachments. Anyone rationally looking at position of the SRU would have told them to sign up for the Champions Cup. Which they duly did. If the SRU's governance structures were functioning properly then the non-executive directors would have been involved in terms of oversight and advice. You have no information to say that they weren't. All you know is that you don't like Paul Rees and you don't trust him.

    Were the Celts "very much united"? They haven't seemed to be. The IRFU and the WRU pushed the negotiations to the brink but they predictably had to back down. RRW never towed the IRFU/WRU line and the SRU acted pragmatically and in their own interests. Rather than a front they were disunited shambles.

    Throughout all these arguments over the European competitions there has been a very strong strain of thought on this message board and others that what is in the interests of the IRFU must be in the interests of the "greater good" and the whole of European rugby. That is self regarding tosh. The IRFU backed the ERC and the status quo not because it was in the "greater good" but because it was explicitly in their self interest to do so. The "greater good" angle was just shallow PR. About as shallow as Premier Rugby claiming they were motivated by a desire for "meritocracy".

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  • Thomond78
    replied
    The RWC is not run by the IRB, it is run by RWC Ltd, an IoM company, and the host union provides the necessary under an agreement with RWC Ltd.

    The host pays a hosting fee to the RWC Ltd, which passes them on to the IRB.

    RWC Limited sells the TV rights, etc, and passes the profits on to the IRB. All the host gets to keep is ticket revenue.

    For 2011, the IRB (via RWC Ltd) demanded, and got, $150m upfront. It was, quite simply, incapable of making a loss from there. Only the NZRU could. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/n...ectid=10750644

    The 2011 RWC was underwritten by the NZ government.

    RWC Ltd made a £90m profit - the second-highest of any RWC ever, just 3% less than the peak-of-the-boom 2007 RWC in France. £10m better than expected http://www.espn.co.uk/2011-rugby-wor...ry/161660.html

    Quare class of uneconomic financial mess for the IRB when their subsidiary made such a huge profit. Basically, you're talking balls.

    By the way, you're paying them £80m upfront for 2015. Enjoy the ticket prices the RFU have set to cover that. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rug...all-short.html

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  • Doodle Bug
    replied
    Originally posted by the plastic paddy View Post
    I really think folk, including Lenihan need to hold their nerve and wait and see where things are post the RWC. There is a truce in England but the Nigel's will throw their toys when there is a mass exodus of England players to France post 2015 as there was post 2011. The Gloucester side Munster played in January contained two Gloucester lads, English players have little to no club loyalty and will be off to fill their boots with no RWC to keep them in England. PRL and Ireland will not be able to compete with T14 but PRL will not accept that and that is all the rope they need to hang themselves. Ireland must keep doing what it has been doing until the RWC, after that all bets are off IMHO.
    What mass exodus after 2011? The Armitage brothers? The biggest movement of English players to France happened in 2008 and 2009 before the RFU had started to enforce "Lancaster's law". Even then many of those that went subsequently returned to a England.

    Also if "Lancaster's law" is maintained and the RFU and Premier Rugby can offer say 70% to 80% of what the French clubs are offering there won't be an exodus after 2015 either. If Premier Rugby are struggling to cope then the RFU will increase their funding. The age profile of the a England squad means most of the players should be able to make it to 2019 as well. Moving to France would jeopardise that possibility even if they could earn a bit more money.

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  • whimpersnap
    replied
    Originally posted by Doodle Bug View Post
    The SRU listened to its non-executive directors and took the best financial deal avaliable and that offered the greatest economic stability.
    You've been pulled up on this before, Wasp. Paul Rees belatedly learned that the SRU had non-executive directors, put 2 and 2 together and got 50. The SRU decided to back the RCC because they thought they'd end up in crisis if European rugby stopped, not because some suit told them it was in their long-term interest.

    There was no "Celtic Front". There never has been.
    This is just nonsense. There wasn't a "Celtic front" based on some shared Celticness, but the Celtic unions were very much united in their belief that a union-backed game was the best for rugby as a whole and for them individually. The PRL and its supporters have pointed to it time and time again.

    Welsh rugby has much more history, affinity and cultural commonality with English rugby than with either Ireland or Scotland. Even a quarter of the current Welsh side was born in England. Wales is effectively part of England too without its own independent legal system unlike Scotland or Northern Ireland. Once you get past all the bluster Wales has much more in common with England, in rugby and general terms, than it does with Ireland or Scotland.
    I'm sure the Welsh will delighted to hear that they're basically English.

    You are confusing what is in the interests of the IRFU with the general interests of European rugby. Despite what you may like to think they are not one and the same thing. What suits the Irish doesn't necessarily suit the English. Or the Scots or the Welsh. The interests of the French Federation are certainly not in line with those of the Irish Union.
    Nobody said they were. The unions all have their own individual interests. The IRFU have been clear in their support for a union-backed game because it has the interests of the worldwide community at heart and because it helps the minority against the majority.

    Leave a comment:


  • Doodle Bug
    replied
    Originally posted by deltared View Post
    I was watching when Donal L said that. Conor O'Shea was only slightly less surprised than me. When I got over my initial shock and thought about it I could a lot of sense in what he was saying. It certainly appears that the "Celtic Front" has been smashed to pieces for any future negotiations on the future of NH rugby. We were aware of the Welsh shenanigans beforehand, what with the civil war between Union & Regions, but the Scots seem to have done untold damage by their devious dealings, such so that they won't be trusted again. If that is indeed the case then the writing is literally on the wall for the Rabo/Celtic League or call it what you like. The Scots have never featured at the business end to date , the Welsh are losing the entire corps of their frontliners, the level of competition is in freefall. I think he's right on both looking after ourselves first and foremost and on looking for a more competitive environment for the future. I also agree with Glorob, the 6N is now facing relegation to a secondary competition at the hands of the PRL & it's ilk, all due to the supine attitude and action of the IRB. It won't stop with the 6N, the IRB will become irrelevant sooner rather than later.

    As you sow, so shall you reap.
    The SRU listened to its non-executive directors and took the best financial deal avaliable and that offered the greatest economic stability. Welsh rugby is a dysfunctional mess. There was no "Celtic Front". There never has been. Welsh rugby has much more history, affinity and cultural commonality with English rugby than with either Ireland or Scotland. Even a quarter of the current Welsh side was born in England. Wales is effectively part of England too without its own independent legal system unlike Scotland or Northern Ireland. Once you get past all the bluster Wales has much more in common with England, in rugby and general terms, than it does with Ireland or Scotland.

    You are confusing what is in the interests of the IRFU with the general interests of European rugby. Despite what you may like to think they are not one and the same thing. What suits the Irish doesn't necessarily suit the English. Or the Scots or the Welsh. The interests of the French Federation are certainly not in line with those of the Irish Union.

    Also your fears for the Six Nations are pretty baseless too. The IRB windows are in place and continue to be enforced. That isn't going to change. If the national Union want to centrally contract their players and pay them the going rate that is their business. They all have the financial resources to do so it they so choose.

    Finally the IRB isn't an independent actor within international rugby. It is merely the collective front for the national Unions and it behaves as such. Once the English RFU had decided to back Premier Rugby the IRB was powerless to intervene against its richest and most powerful Union. Remember the IRB is dependent on the English RFU digging them out of the financial mess the IRB got itself into when the National Unions stupidly decided to stage the 2011 World Cup in New Zealand despite it being fundamentally uneconomic.

    Leave a comment:


  • Stanley
    replied
    If you take the Glas v Ed result 37-35, where the ball was tossed about and the Mun gutting of Ed, an away semi-final v Glas will surely have us as favs, they caught us on the hop post HC QF, do not think Mun will allow same in such a short space of time.

    Leave a comment:


  • whimpersnap
    replied
    Lenihan is wrong about one thing. Pro 12 attendances aren't declining - they're up 10% in the four years since the Italians joined. In fact, the only teams that are down are Ospreys, Cardiff and Munster (Munster coming from a much higher base).

    Leave a comment:


  • Thomond78
    replied
    Originally posted by sewa View Post
    How incredibly boring, I mean seriously man
    It's "Mr. Unitas" to you, hippy.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cowboy
    replied
    Originally posted by sewa View Post
    I think all the teams will fancy a cut off them but fair play to them, they have been excellent, back row in particular
    Quintessential Scottish rugby. Boring and dull and a dead eye goal kicker.

    Leave a comment:


  • múmhan matt
    replied
    Originally posted by Thomond78 View Post
    On the wider issue, the Super15 is expanding; union-controlled franchises, in an entirely union-owned competition. They have all the Tier One countries south of the Line, and may be expanding north of it. We should be talking to them for our preseasons; the S15 final is the 2nd of August, so one or two squads would certainly be lurking around in some format, especially SA ones who'd be rolling into the Currie Cup.
    Now that would be worth looking into. Might well tick a lot of the important boxes. Certainly the preseason would be a good way to start exploring that.

    Leave a comment:


  • sewa
    replied
    Originally posted by Cowboy View Post
    They've been the most pragmatic. I'm hoping our cup game will vanquish them. Picking and driving should negate their living offside in midfield.
    I think all the teams will fancy a cut off them but fair play to them, they have been excellent, back row in particular

    Leave a comment:


  • sewa
    replied
    Originally posted by Thomond78 View Post
    On the wider issue, the Super15 is expanding; union-controlled franchises, in an entirely union-owned competition. They have all the Tier One countries south of the Line, and may be expanding north of it. We should be talking to them for our preseasons; the S15 final is the 2nd of August, so one or two squads would certainly be lurking around in some format, especially SA ones who'd be rolling into the Currie Cup.
    How incredibly boring, I mean seriously man

    Leave a comment:


  • Thomond78
    replied
    On the wider issue, the Super15 is expanding; union-controlled franchises, in an entirely union-owned competition. They have all the Tier One countries south of the Line, and may be expanding north of it. We should be talking to them for our preseasons; the S15 final is the 2nd of August, so one or two squads would certainly be lurking around in some format, especially SA ones who'd be rolling into the Currie Cup.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cowboy
    replied
    Originally posted by sewa View Post
    I know that, just on balance they have been most consistent
    They've been the most pragmatic. I'm hoping our cup game will vanquish them. Picking and driving should negate their living offside in midfield.

    Leave a comment:


  • sewa
    replied
    Originally posted by deltared View Post
    ...todate!! Theres always a first time, this might be it.
    I know that, just on balance they have been most consistent

    Leave a comment:

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