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    Originally posted by Doodle Bug View Post
    Have a read of the "Where have all the fans gone" thread. Very interesting. This season it looks like Ulster might beat Munster's average attendance figures too.

    Lots for Munster as a province to chew on.

    Here is a detailed analysis on the differences in average attendances between teams' domestic league matches and the Europe Cup pool matches from the Harlequins message board.

    http://www.rugbynetwork.net/boards/r...m?100,14497894
    Not sure why i bother but here goes : The link above does attendances upto 20/12/13
    As you are no doubt aware Munster have two grounds MP 8-9,000 and TP 26,000 . There are also several season ticket options including Cork only , MP matches are generally early season against the lesser teams so having a cut off at 20/12/13 will distort the average .
    Munster home matches to 20/12/13 :
    Vs ED at MP 6810 , DRG at MP 6248 , Lein at TP 20,646 , O's at TP 14,216 and Sclets at MP 7867 . Three out of five Rabbo at MP during this period, 6 more Rabbo home matches 5 TP and only one MP to come .

    Comment


      Originally posted by Leo View Post
      Doodle Bug is that Scarlets fella, the Turk or whatever his name was.

      Anyway Doodle Turk, it was my post you were referencing, not Sewa, as much as I like to see people have a go at that old hound, but also you should note I'm a Leinster fan, not Munster, so attacking Munster attendances isn't really getting to the heart of what my point was, i.e. The Welsh regional game is unsustainable through arrogance and biting off their nose to spite their face (to sum it up in a sentence).

      Regarding attendances, the highest attended Welsh game of the entire season (outside of Super Dooper Sunday) is on a par with the lowest attendance of the entire season at Thomond Park. I didn't check your figures / links, but from memory Munsters average attendance is ballpark 16,000 (dragged down a fair bit by Musgrave), and Leinsters average attendance is usually in and around the 20,000 mark (dragged up a fair bit by the head-to-head with Munster at Lansdowne). There's no question that Munsters attendances have slipped in the league somewhat, but in terms of sustainability, their lowest league attendance in Limerick (i.e. their worst day) is the equivalent to the highest WELSH attendance in the league (i.e. their best day), there's no comparrison.

      Every team in every sport has bandwagon fans, that's a fact of the sport, but to compare what games MUNSTER fans pick and choose to go too versus what Welsh RUGBY fans pick and choose to go to is sort of missing the point. Munster fans still go to Munster games, Ospreys, Scarlets, Cardiff and Dragons fans only go to Welsh games. That's why your regions are failing and that's why there's an exodus of players abroad and that's why your system is a liability to Pro12 rugby. The fact that the Welsh thought they could exist in the AP when time and time again this "English opposition will bring in the fans" myth has been proven to be false, and Dragons can only sit above Italian teams in the table, Cardiff do one better, managing to get ahead of Connacht, our development province and Scarlets going one better again, getting ahead of Edinburgh...

      If three Welsh teams can only get ahead of the likes of Treviso, Zebre, Connacht and Edinburgh but think they'd have a hope in hell in the AP, it just goes to show how delusional RRW is. At the top end of the Pro12, the teams are every bit as good as anything the AP can produce, but at the bottom end of the Pro12, the teams are for the most part jokes and would be slaughtered in the AP.
      Well I am not Turk Boy and I am not Welsh just a disinterested observer.

      Munster have an average Pro12 attendance of 12,334 so far this season. Leinster 19,824. The Munster figure is beaten by many of the English and French clubs.

      Welsh rugby is a mess because the clubs and the Union refuse to work with each other and are more interested in petty point scoring. The Union wants the Regions to pay the players wages whilst having unfettered access to them and the regions want more money from the Union without any strings attached. Until they meet in the middle and agree to compromise a Welsh rugby will continue to struggle.

      If the Welsh Union wants to take on full responsibility for running Welsh Rugby on a provincial model then they should buy out the regions and centrally contract the players. If the WRU wants the regions to continue to pay the players then they need to co-operate with them and work together. That is the choice that needs to be made rather than allowing this conflict to rumble on unproductively.

      So far the WRU is trying to have its cake and eat. It wants the private backers of the regions to pay the wages of the Welsh players whilst demanding that it has full control of them. If the WRU wants full control then it is going to have to pay for it. Otherwise it needs to compromise.

      Comment


        Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post
        It's not that detailed, is it? It ignores the fact that a third of our home games are played in a ground with a capacity of 8,300.
        Musgrave Park has a capacity of 9,251 not 8,300. Even then Munster don't get close to selling it out when they play there. Munster's biggest crowd at Musgrave this season has been 7,867.

        Comment


          Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post
          It's not that detailed, is it? It ignores the fact that a third of our home games are played in a ground with a capacity of 8,300.
          Taking official attendances from Munsterrugby.ie (not sure about this as Treviso and Glasgow games are both recorded as 13,946), the breakdown is as follows:

          Thomond Park:

          20,646
          14,216
          18,870
          13,821
          13,946
          13,946
          ULSTER

          That gives a six-game average of 15,907. Assuming a close to full house for Ulster, that'll push the average up over 17,000.

          Musgrave Park:

          6,810
          6,428
          7,867
          7,330

          That gives a four-game average of 7,108.

          Overall, the average is 12,338, which should go up to around 14,000 after Ulster.

          Comment


            Originally posted by Doodle Bug View Post
            Well I am not Turk Boy and I am not Welsh just a disinterested observer.

            Munster have an average Pro12 attendance of 12,334 so far this season. Leinster 19,824. The Munster figure is beaten by many of the English and French clubs.

            Welsh rugby is a mess because the clubs and the Union refuse to work with each other and are more interested in petty point scoring. The Union wants the Regions to pay the players wages whilst having unfettered access to them and the regions want more money from the Union without any strings attached. Until they meet in the middle and agree to compromise a Welsh rugby will continue to struggle.

            If the Welsh Union wants to take on full responsibility for running Welsh Rugby on a provincial model then they should buy out the regions and centrally contract the players. If the WRU wants the regions to continue to pay the players then they need to co-operate with them and work together. That is the choice that needs to be made rather than allowing this conflict to rumble on unproductively.

            So far the WRU is trying to have its cake and eat. It wants the private backers of the regions to pay the wages of the Welsh players whilst demanding that it has full control of them. If the WRU wants full control then it is going to have to pay for it. Otherwise it needs to compromise.

            Again - our average attendance is distorted by the fact that our Cork base has a small capacity.

            TP figures this year: 20,646, 14,216, 18,870, 13,821, 13,946, 13,946.

            An average attendance of 15,907. On the link that you provide, that puts our average Thomond Park attendance ahead of all average gates for Premiership clubs bar Leicester.
            "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

            "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


            "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

            Comment


              Originally posted by Doodle Bug View Post
              Musgrave Park has a capacity of 9,251 not 8,300. Even then Munster don't get close to selling it out when they play there. Munster's biggest crowd at Musgrave this season has been 7,867.

              Nevertheless, your point re: our home attendances vs English clubs does not stand. At our primary base, our average league attendance exceeds all bar Tigers.
              "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

              "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


              "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

              Comment


                Originally posted by outside inside View Post
                Not sure why i bother but here goes : The link above does attendances upto 20/12/13
                As you are no doubt aware Munster have two grounds MP 8-9,000 and TP 26,000 . There are also several season ticket options including Cork only , MP matches are generally early season against the lesser teams so having a cut off at 20/12/13 will distort the average .
                Munster home matches to 20/12/13 :
                Vs ED at MP 6810 , DRG at MP 6248 , Lein at TP 20,646 , O's at TP 14,216 and Sclets at MP 7867 . Three out of five Rabbo at MP during this period, 6 more Rabbo home matches 5 TP and only one MP to come .
                No. Those crowd figures are for the 2013/14 Season up to the 16th December 2013.

                Munster choose to play their games at Musgrave Park. Not anyone else. If they think it is too small then they could always play all their games at Thomond or alternatively they could build a bigger ground in Cork.

                Even in at Thomond the disparity between the European Cup games and the Pro12 is very pronounced. Munster v Edinburgh in the European Cup got 25,600 whilst Munster v Leinster in the Pro12 only got 20,646. Most of the Pro12 crowds at Thomond are less than 14,000 and that includes a lot of pre-sold season tickets. The "Where have all the crowds gone" thread suggested many season ticket holders don't even bother with the Pro12.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Doodle Bug View Post
                  No. Those crowd figures are for the 2013/14 Season up to the 16th December 2013.

                  Munster choose to play their games at Musgrave Park. Not anyone else. If they think it is too small then they could always play all their games at Thomond or alternatively they could build a bigger ground in Cork.

                  Even in at Thomond the disparity between the European Cup games and the Pro12 is very pronounced. Munster v Edinburgh in the European Cup got 25,600 whilst Munster v Leinster in the Pro12 only got 20,646. Most of the Pro12 crowds at Thomond are less than 14,000 and that includes a lot of pre-sold season tickets. The "Where have all the crowds gone" thread suggested many season ticket holders don't even bother with the Pro12.

                  Munster choose to play there because it is a provincial, representative side.

                  Your point is, supposedly, that Munster's attendances for league games do not compare to English clubs. It has been demonstrated that when they are held in the ground with our fullest capacity, they exceed them. Most of them by a considerable margin.

                  You're now complaining that they're more in the HEC, and "only" 20,646 in the league - a figure that beats most of the Premiership out the gate. The lower gates for TP games reflect that lack of travelling support from Wales, Scotland and Italy. All of those that involve a more practical journey for domestic fans, the most relevant point of comparison for English clubs, exceed the average premiership gate by even more.

                  You are, in short, flailing.
                  "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                  "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                  "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post
                    Again - our average attendance is distorted by the fact that our Cork base has a small capacity.

                    TP figures this year: 20,646, 14,216, 18,870, 13,821, 13,946, 13,946.

                    An average attendance of 15,907. On the link that you provide, that puts our average Thomond Park attendance ahead of all average gates for Premiership clubs bar Leicester.
                    As I said Munster choose to play in Cork. That is their choice. Also even with its smaller capacity of 9,251 Munster don't get anywhere close to selling it out. Capacity at Musgrave doesn't seem to be the problem. There is nothing to suggest that if they played at a bigger ground in Cork that Munster's crowds would improve.

                    To be honest if I was a Cork based Munster supporter I would feel pretty short changed. Limerick gets all the big games whilst Cork is left with the dregs.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Doodle Bug View Post
                      As I said Munster choose to play in Cork. That is their choice. Also even with its smaller capacity of 9,251 Munster don't get anywhere close to selling it out. Capacity at Musgrave doesn't seem to be the problem. There is nothing to suggest that if they played at a bigger ground in Cork that Munster's crowds would improve.

                      To be honest if I was a Cork based Munster supporter I would feel pretty short changed. Limerick gets all the big games whilst Cork is left with the dregs.
                      And the fact that they choose to play in Cork clearly indicates that they have deliberately foregone the option to increase their attendances by playing them in Limerick. Which renders your observation that the average attendances aren't as high as some other clubs rather redundant.

                      Again, those fixtures played at Thomond Park evidence fairly clearly that our league support, let alone our HEC support, comfortably outstrips all but one Premiership Club.

                      So your initial assertion, and subsequent shifts, are both misleading and pointless.
                      "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                      "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                      "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                      Comment


                        I am interested in the average attendances at all home matches wherever they are played. As I said if capacity was the problem with Musgrave Park then they would sell it out every time they played there. Munster don't get anywhere close to doing that. It seems interest rather than capacity is the problem with Cork.

                        As I said Munster choose to play their home games in Cork. They don't have to and if they wanted to they could build a bigger stadium in Cork. They don't because there isn't the demand.

                        Leicester have averaged over 22,000 for their league games this season.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Doodle Bug View Post
                          I am interested in the average attendances at all home matches wherever they are played. As I said if capacity was the problem with Musgrave Park then they would sell it out every time they played there. Munster don't get anywhere close to doing that. It seems interest rather than capacity is the problem with Cork.

                          As I said Munster choose to play their home games in Cork. They don't have to and if they wanted to they could build a bigger stadium in Cork. They don't because there isn't the demand.

                          Leicester have averaged over 22,000 for their league games this season.
                          What you're interested in isn't terribly relevant though. You have made an assertion about the nature of Munster's support based on average attendance figures. You have been shown that your assertion is not supported by those figures. Whether the average is correct or not is not the issue.

                          The capacity at Musgrave is also not the issue. The point being made is that if Munster were seeking solely to maximise their gates, they would stage all of their home matches in Limerick where attendances directly contradict your assertions about the nature of the support.

                          But they are not solely in the business of selling seats. They are actively foregoing seat sales in order to maintain a presence across the province.

                          Now, you will rather repetitively reassert that no one makes them do that. And that is true. But the point you seem to be struggling to grasp is that, for the reasons made clear, our average home gate is not a direct indicator of our support level in the way it is for someone like Leicester or Gloucester.
                          "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                          "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                          "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Doodle Bug View Post
                            When Munster has worse domestic attendances than Leinster, Leicester, Gloucester, Harlequins, Northampton, Bordeaux-Begles, Toulon, Toulouse, Clermont, Stade Francais, Bayonne and Grenoble it sort of puts a lie to the myth that Munster have the "most dedicated fans in Europe".

                            Also many of these clubs consistently get to the later stages of the European competitions.

                            To put attendances in context what percentage of the population in the catchment areas of the teams you listed actually attend the games?

                            Comment


                              I can understand why Munster want to play in Cork but it is their choice that they play at such a small ground. Even then Munster don't get anywhere close to selling out Musgrave Park. As I said capacity isn't the issue, interest is. They average 7,100 in a ground that only has a capacity of 9,200. That is a poor record and is under 80% of capacity.

                              If Musgrave Park was bursting at the seams like the Bath Recreation Ground or Franklins Gardens then you might have a point but it isn't.

                              Why are Munster's crowds in Cork so poor and why is there a massive drop off in support between the European Cup and the Pro12? Leinster and. Ulster don't suffer from these sorts of problems. Neither do the English and French clubs.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Doodle Bug View Post
                                I am interested in the average attendances at all home matches wherever they are played. As I said if capacity was the problem with Musgrave Park then they would sell it out every time they played there. Munster don't get anywhere close to doing that. It seems interest rather than capacity is the problem with Cork.

                                As I said Munster choose to play their home games in Cork. They don't have to and if they wanted to they could build a bigger stadium in Cork. They don't because there isn't the demand.

                                Leicester have averaged over 22,000 for their league games this season.
                                Actually, the construction work is happening right now.
                                Ceterum censeo INM irrumandum esse.

                                Comment

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