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    #91
    Originally posted by sewa View Post
    Seeding in the HC has never depended upon league performances though. Cant see it being introduced
    Before they brought in the current system, the "draw" was sown up along the lines of Irish 1, English 2, France 3 Italy in one pool, Irish 2 English 3 France 1 and Scotland in another and so on.

    Comment


      #92
      Originally posted by Corcíoch View Post
      Which league is or is not harder on players is utterly irrelevant to this topic . . ..financial survival without the HEC.

      Which league has a more holistic long term view isn't really relevant either.

      Whether the Welsh clubs can compete long term in the AP is also not relevant . . . .they were referred to simply because they hinted at switching to get more money . . not less.

      This is about survival without the HEC. Thats the topic. The AP clubs have stated they believe they can survive if the HEC talks grind to a halt and we have no HEC as we know it. I have put across the point that they may not be bluffing and may be able to survive . . . . one reason being that a certain number of their teams are never or rarely in the HEC in the first place and they survive.

      I've seen no actual proof from anyone that they are wrong and they couldn't survive.


      I never said for a second I prefer the AP to the Rabo, I dont in case anyone thinks I do, I think its a rubbish league . . . .but that is also not the issue being discussed.

      There is clear evidence from the figures of the Munster Balance Sheet that Munster would not survive as they are without the money from European Rugby at HEC level, because even with it we have made losses.
      AFAIK the AP share of ERC Money is shared equally between all AP teams, those not competing do still depend on it, maybe moreso than the more successful teams who'll likely have bigger gates.

      Comment


        #93
        There is not a sufficient demand for rugby union in England to sustain a professional league as it stands. The clubs spend more on wages each season with no marked increase in income. The Top 14 has much deeper roots but outside of a top six or so the clubs do not have the resources to keep spending. The league has been dominated by the same 5-6 teams for a few years and will continue to do so as the money continues to attract overseas players looking for a big payday.
        The question that needs to be answered is who will they play against? The same 5-6 teams providing the winners every year soon becomes boring. The public ouside the big 5-6 will tune out and the standards will stagnate at best and then recede. The weekly offering in both the Top14 and the AP is fairly boring and the quality of their national teams is declining.

        Without HEC both leagues are fupped. Wray and co are dangerous because they are too stupid to realise that they are indeed stupid.
        A lion online, a lamb at home.

        Comment


          #94
          Originally posted by Corcíoch View Post
          Which league is or is not harder on players is utterly irrelevant to this topic . . ..financial survival without the HEC.

          Which league has a more holistic long term view isn't really relevant either.

          Whether the Welsh clubs can compete long term in the AP is also not relevant . . . .they were referred to simply because they hinted at switching to get more money . . not less.

          This is about survival without the HEC. Thats the topic. The AP clubs have stated they believe they can survive if the HEC talks grind to a halt and we have no HEC as we know it. I have put across the point that they may not be bluffing and may be able to survive . . . . one reason being that a certain number of their teams are never or rarely in the HEC in the first place and they survive.

          I've seen no actual proof from anyone that they are wrong and they couldn't survive.


          I never said for a second I prefer the AP to the Rabo, I dont in case anyone thinks I do, I think its a rubbish league . . . .but that is also not the issue being discussed.

          There is clear evidence from the figures of the Munster Balance Sheet that Munster would not survive as they are without the money from European Rugby at HEC level, because even with it we have made losses.
          Premiership clubs receive about £8.5 million for their participation in the HEC and Amlin. Their deal with BT is worth £125m for the next three years. £8.5m would, roughly, run London Irish for a year.

          So at a headline level you'd think it was a drop in the ocean. But when you look at the figures here:

          http://www.espnscrum.com/premiership...ry/164350.html

          it looks a bit different. Yes, compared to their £120m turnover the £8.5 is a small chunk. But they've got a combined operating loss of £16.2m across the league. Half have a deficit of £1.5m or more (this was to the end of 2011, btw, the most recent figures I can find).

          How many of that half can afford to chuck away their share of the £8.5?

          It's a big league, with a big turnover. But most of the clubs in it are operating on a very narrow margin, and any significant dent in their revenues could cause them pain I suspect.
          "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

          "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


          "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

          Comment


            #95
            Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post
            Premiership clubs receive about £8.5 million for their participation in the HEC and Amlin. Their deal with BT is worth £125m for the next three years. £8.5m would, roughly, run London Irish for a year.

            So at a headline level you'd think it was a drop in the ocean. But when you look at the figures here:

            http://www.espnscrum.com/premiership...ry/164350.html

            it looks a bit different. Yes, compared to their £120m turnover the £8.5 is a small chunk. But they've got a combined operating loss of £16.2m across the league. Half have a deficit of £1.5m or more (this was to the end of 2011, btw, the most recent figures I can find).

            How many of that half can afford to chuck away their share of the £8.5?

            It's a big league, with a big turnover. But most of the clubs in it are operating on a very narrow margin, and any significant dent in their revenues could cause them pain I suspect.
            I think they get about £300,000 each from the European Games. Per Club.

            I agree their margins are tight.

            Most here seem to disagree with me and think they are bluffing. The AP clubs

            I don't think they are is all.


            We'll see in time sure.

            Comment


              #96
              Originally posted by 5eight View Post
              There is not a sufficient demand for rugby union in England to sustain a professional league as it stands. The clubs spend more on wages each season with no marked increase in income. The Top 14 has much deeper roots but outside of a top six or so the clubs do not have the resources to keep spending. The league has been dominated by the same 5-6 teams for a few years and will continue to do so as the money continues to attract overseas players looking for a big payday.
              The question that needs to be answered is who will they play against? The same 5-6 teams providing the winners every year soon becomes boring. The public ouside the big 5-6 will tune out and the standards will stagnate at best and then recede. The weekly offering in both the Top14 and the AP is fairly boring and the quality of their national teams is declining.

              Without HEC both leagues are fupped. Wray and co are dangerous because they are too stupid to realise that they are indeed stupid.
              .


              I dunno if you can say that there is no demand for RU in England.

              They have over 2,000,000 registered players alone . . . . .

              We have about a fifth of that. Even if only they watched rugby . . .and we know far far more than that do . . . . .thats still a HUGE difference. ( They do have poor ish physical attendances at AP games . ..but I think its fair to assume in light of recent deals that the TV viewer ship is far better )

              I fully agree with your last point RE Wray and Co . . .I've been making the same point all along myself.
              Last edited by Corcíoch; 3rd-May-2013, 16:48.

              Comment


                #97
                The clubs are either run inefficiently or there is no sustainable market for them. Why should the major European tournament be change to facilitate their owners?
                A lion online, a lamb at home.

                Comment


                  #98
                  Originally posted by 5eight View Post
                  The clubs are either run inefficiently or there is no sustainable market for them. Why should the major European tournament be change to facilitate their owners?
                  I never said I agreed with them.

                  I completely disagree with them. I have no respect for the AP . . . .


                  The ONLY point i've been making here is that I do not believe they are bluffing when they say they can survive without the HEC and will walk away if things don't change.



                  Anyway. this thread is like a Giant circle at this stage.

                  There is only so many times you can make a point, have it completely misconstrued before saying g luck . . . . . . .

                  Comment


                    #99
                    Originally posted by Corcíoch View Post
                    .


                    I dunno if you can say that there is no demand for RU in England.

                    They have over 2,000,000 registered players alone . . . . .
                    Insufficient demand for a pro league, amateur rugby is in rude health. Most amateur players / club members have no affiliation to an AP club.
                    A lion online, a lamb at home.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Corcíoch View Post
                      I never said I agreed with them.

                      I completely disagree with them. I have no respect for the AP . . . .


                      The ONLY point i've been making here is that I do not believe they are bluffing when they say they can survive without the HEC and will walk away if things don't change.



                      Anyway. this thread is like a Giant circle at this stage.

                      There is only so many times you can make a point, have it completely misconstrued before saying g luck . . . . . . .
                      Just a general question, not aimed anyone in particular.
                      A lion online, a lamb at home.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by 5eight View Post
                        Just a general question, not aimed anyone in particular.
                        Fair Enough

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by 5eight View Post
                          Insufficient demand for a pro league, amateur rugby is in rude health. Most amateur players / club members have no affiliation to an AP club.
                          Too true. Only a handful of the guys I've played with over the last few years would go and watch a club, and even then not regularly.

                          They play rugby or their club, and they go to England matches.
                          "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                          "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                          "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Corcíoch View Post
                            I think they get about £300,000 each from the European Games. Per Club.

                            I agree their margins are tight.

                            Most here seem to disagree with me and think they are bluffing. The AP clubs

                            I don't think they are is all.


                            We'll see in time sure.
                            Losing £300k is a big deal when you're already £1.5m plus in the red.

                            In essence, the financial structure of the Prem is such that less than a handful of clubs are able to operate at surplus.

                            And of those that are, £300k would make a big chunk of their surplus.

                            The Prem clubs are bluffing when they claim to be financially viable with the HEC, let alone without it.
                            "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                            "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                            "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post
                              Too true. Only a handful of the guys I've played with over the last few years would go and watch a club, and even then not regularly.

                              They play rugby or their club, and they go to England matches.
                              Not much different from here

                              Comment


                                I wonder if BT know that the deal they struck for European rugby involves Bath v the Portuguese champions and Leicester v The Romanian champs.

                                This is aside from the fact that I don't know a single person with BT Vision.

                                This will end in tears. And, possibly, in court.
                                Please support Milford Hospice. Click here to donate.

                                Comment

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