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    Originally posted by múmhan matt View Post
    Yep, your right. But if its a case where the IRFU strategy was to delay and delay untill it was too late to do any thing other than tweak the last agreement, then they have failed.
    It wouldn't be the first time the IRFU have completely misjudged the situation. I think the intelligent thing to do now is give the English/French what they want in terms of qualification criteria but refuse to budge on the money (or at least take a harder stand on that one). If it really is 'all about the money' which like many I suspect it is, then it's worth calling their (i.e. LNR/PRL) bluff. I think the money is vital in keeping the 'weaker unions' competitive. Having no Italian's in the H-Cup is not ideal but they can still compete in the Rabbo (which will be a lot more interesting if there is a genuine goal to say finishing 1st - 6th)/Amlin.

    Anyway either the money is split between the unions based on agreement between them (after that the unions are free to spend money as they see fit) or it is given directly to the clubs in terms of prize money based on where they finish. Giving the Enslish 1/3 of the bounty when their teams haven't been competitive makes no sense. Leinster/Munster alone deserve as much funding as the English & Welsh sides combined based on performance in the last few years. The magic of the H-Cup has a lot to do with the Irish involvement and the competitiveness of our teams. I'd like to see the audience figures for Munster & Leinster H-cup matches over the last few years in contrast to the other clubs. If the dispensation of cash is to be based on market economics then, then let's make sure we get our fair share!
    Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again (like picking Gordon D'Arcy) and expecting different results.
    Albert Einstein

    Comment


      Originally posted by Jos View Post
      And the clubs could split from the IRB ( like Rugby League).
      Then you destroy rugby rather than compromise. A rather silly position.

      And, moreover, one that's unlikely to work. This isn't 1895. Leaving aside that it would involve so many breaches of contract that the unions would have to go to Court to get injunctions, enforceable in France, there's the question of ownership of everything connected with the game. They have trademarked almost everything involved with the game. They learnt their lesson after Kerry Packer's attempts in 1995.

      This should give you an idea how far down that road they are:

      http://www.domainpulse.com/2012/04/24/8182/
      Ceterum censeo INM irrumandum esse.

      Comment


        Originally posted by Jos View Post
        In fact they expect 120M/year for the top 14. (x4 the current deal)

        Link? Fair play if the French can manage that but I'd be slightly sceptical.

        Originally posted by sewa View Post
        The TV packages just announced in England and being discussed in France (likely to be double existing deal) suggests otherwise
        The PRL/BT deal is worth a reported £152Million over 4 years to show Aviva League games AND the Aviva team's ERC games...something they did not have the right to do. McCafferty, at the time, suggested that the Aviva Premiership TV deal was a 50% improvement upon the £18Million a year that Sky/ESPN were paying making £27Million PA a more realistic figure and I believe the other £9Million was to be made up from rights to AN Other European Competition.

        If we are working on the figures of 27 V 18 Mil AP clubs are now receving £2.25Mil per season compared to £1.5Mil per season under the BSkyB/Espn deal. That's a decent £750,000 improvement which is not to be sniffed at. The additional £750,000 whilst being an improvement on their £400,000 quoted by O'Shea on RTE is not going to be the game changer in terms of overall revenue. The difference is probably less than a sold-out game by any half-decently supported outfit.

        I suppose the above highlights part of the problem, nobody knows exactly what is on the table. I have no particularly strong allegiance to sky-If BT offered more than Sky for the existing ERC/Heineken Cup then the laws of capitalism should prevail however BT are using the PRL as a tool to try and damage BSkyB and thus the ERC. The head of BT Sport was on the record as saying, in September 2012, that the Heineken Cup was "over" and that BT, in conjunction with the clubs, would help to create a brighter, shinier and better version of a competition that has went from strength to strength year on year.

        BT are trying, in effect, to push through a hostile take-over of all of Sky's key sports markets and have a battle-fund to do so. There is no reason that the ERC could not have used this to their advantage had the PRL not taken the unsupportable line that they did, as a result ERC had to side with someone on 'their' side which was Sky. BT knowing they cannot get a European Competition through the ERC will now try everything within their considerable financial power to wreck the product BSkyB have.

        This sort of thing simply cannot be tolerated by the Unions or the IRB. Premier League football in England should be more than enough of a warning to both the Unions and IRB of just what will happen to Rugby if allowed to go down the solely commerical football route. The EPL is the richest and most competitive (note not the best any more) league in the world but the English national side, and indeed all of the home nations national sides, are pretty piss poor.

        Unless the PRL clubs were being offered the sort of wedge that Jos claims the French are above, which is extremely unlikely given rugby's limited potential/existing audience within the UK, then TV money will never be the magic solution the PRL want us to believe.

        Comment


          Originally posted by sewa View Post
          Clubs splitting from the IRB / IRFU would be great but it ain't going to happen
          Ah yes, that great big black hole on your balance sheet (TP) would look really rosey if the IRFU called in their debts in the manner any other traditional financial institution would have by now.

          I suspect wummery on your behalf but you know as well as I do Munster, nor any of the other province's, could stand alone without the support of the IRFU. The same IRFU that were crucial in keeping guys like O'Connell, O'Gara, O'Callaghan, Wallace etc etc in Ireland even when interest from elsewhere was considerable.

          Comment


            Originally posted by at henry View Post
            You do know that the Super League governing body was re-integrated into the RFL in 2002, right? And that in 2006 a new accord between the SL clubs and the RFL was signed, which saw the clubs take responsibility for tv rights, sponsorship, etc. (the commercial side of things, basically), while the RFL took responsibility for the fixtures list, club eligibility criteria, disciplinary procedures, providing referees, etc?http://www.therfl.co.uk/news/article/5830In other words, the SL clubs realised -- and realised very quickly -- that they couldn't manage a functioning league without some kind of governing body.So perhaps you should stop using RL as an example of the future for professional rugby union in Europe, because it's doing your argument no favours at all, for so many reasons.
            I said about Rugby League, not Super League. And now we've got 2 sports: Rugby League and Rugby Union. But I admit it's very unlikely. It would be an extreme response to extreme sanctions from IRB.

            Comment


              I have to say the RFU are being very spineless on this.

              More worried about 2015 than the future of the game.

              If they don't pull their finger out soon and slap down the PRL there will be no bloody game.
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              Comment


                Originally posted by Red Hand Hero View Post
                Ah yes, that great big black hole on your balance sheet (TP) would look really rosey if the IRFU called in their debts in the manner any other traditional financial institution would have by now.

                I suspect wummery on your behalf but you know as well as I do Munster, nor any of the other province's, could stand alone without the support of the IRFU. The same IRFU that were crucial in keeping guys like O'Connell, O'Gara, O'Callaghan, Wallace etc etc in Ireland even when interest from elsewhere was considerable.
                We'd have our HEC TV money for first time ever and they'd have to pay us to use our players in international games. Problem solved
                My computer thinks I'm gay
                What's the difference anyway
                When all the people do all day
                Is stare into a phone

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Mcork View Post
                  It wouldn't be the first time the IRFU have completely misjudged the situation. I think the intelligent thing to do now is give the English/French what they want in terms of qualification criteria but refuse to budge on the money (or at least take a harder stand on that one). If it really is 'all about the money' which like many I suspect it is, then it's worth calling their (i.e. LNR/PRL) bluff. I think the money is vital in keeping the 'weaker unions' competitive. Having no Italian's in the H-Cup is not ideal but they can still compete in the Rabbo (which will be a lot more interesting if there is a genuine goal to say finishing 1st - 6th)/Amlin.

                  Anyway either the money is split between the unions based on agreement between them (after that the unions are free to spend money as they see fit) or it is given directly to the clubs in terms of prize money based on where they finish. Giving the Enslish 1/3 of the bounty when their teams haven't been competitive makes no sense. Leinster/Munster alone deserve as much funding as the English & Welsh sides combined based on performance in the last few years. The magic of the H-Cup has a lot to do with the Irish involvement and the competitiveness of our teams. I'd like to see the audience figures for Munster & Leinster H-cup matches over the last few years in contrast to the other clubs. If the dispensation of cash is to be based on market economics then, then let's make sure we get our fair share!
                  Though your points are interesting, it's a bit late for all of that. These negotiations should have happened a year or more ago. That the tactic was just ignore ignore ignore has led to this not being an option anymore, if the pronouncements of various senior figures from PRL, LNR and various club chairmen / CEOs of both English and French clubs are accurate.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Mcork View Post
                    It wouldn't be the first time the IRFU have completely misjudged the situation. I think the intelligent thing to do now is give the English/French what they want in terms of qualification criteria but refuse to budge on the money (or at least take a harder stand on that one). If it really is 'all about the money' which like many I suspect it is, then it's worth calling their (i.e. LNR/PRL) bluff. I think the money is vital in keeping the 'weaker unions' competitive. Having no Italian's in the H-Cup is not ideal but they can still compete in the Rabbo (which will be a lot more interesting if there is a genuine goal to say finishing 1st - 6th)/Amlin.

                    Anyway either the money is split between the unions based on agreement between them (after that the unions are free to spend money as they see fit) or it is given directly to the clubs in terms of prize money based on where they finish. Giving the Enslish 1/3 of the bounty when their teams haven't been competitive makes no sense. Leinster/Munster alone deserve as much funding as the English & Welsh sides combined based on performance in the last few years. The magic of the H-Cup has a lot to do with the Irish involvement and the competitiveness of our teams. I'd like to see the audience figures for Munster & Leinster H-cup matches over the last few years in contrast to the other clubs. If the dispensation of cash is to be based on market economics then, then let's make sure we get our fair share!
                    Would have to agree with you. It would certainly be worth calling their bluff as we stand to loose so much anyway. And then see where we stand. But for it to work the RFU, FFU and IRB need to get moving. I'm just not so sure the RFU are that interested in strong arming their clubs - so that leaves the IRB as the only force that could force a resolution.
                    I find your lack of faith disturbing....

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Jos View Post
                      I said about Rugby League, not Super League.
                      Forgive the confusion. I thought you were using a relevant example from recent history to bolster your argument, rather than an irrelevant example from over a century ago with no bearing on current events and, thus, no bearing on the issue we are actually discussing.

                      My bad.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by sewa View Post
                        I was down the local last night, good game of Rabo rugby to watch on the box. I was the only one there who even knew it was on. The thing needs sorting, proper advertising, restructuring where required. The current league is a joke even for the tiny minority who actually watch it
                        Nearly 17,000 in RDS on Saturday

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Red Hand Hero View Post
                          Link? Fair play if the French can manage that but I'd be slightly sceptical..
                          No links, just the newspaper "Midol" from today. They said they expect 120M/year. Today it's 30M/year because the old contract was signed when Canal+ was in a monopoly situation. The contract is actually undervalued.But the situation is different now, there is a new Channel Being Sport ( own by the Qatari like PSG in football), and they want the Rugby TV rights. Canal+ already lost a lot of the Football game, et they can't loose the Rugby. In my opinion the LNR will get probably 80-100M/ years.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by The Spoofer View Post
                            Nearly 17,000 in RDS on Saturday
                            Nice day for a few bevvies, good time slot etc. Doesn't change the fact the league is ****e with attendances in Scotland and Wales being disgracefully poor. The Welsh players cant even be arsed with the league
                            My computer thinks I'm gay
                            What's the difference anyway
                            When all the people do all day
                            Is stare into a phone

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by The Spoofer View Post
                              Nearly 17,000 in RDS on Saturday
                              Leinster and Munster have 2 of the best average attendances in Europe only Toulouse and Leicester up there too.
                              Though Clermont and Toulon are around 14-15,000 aswell.
                              Ulster im sure will join that over next few years too given improvement to Ravenhill.
                              There has been alot of hard work and shillings spent by supporters in last 15yrs building club rugby in Europe. The suits seems to have forgotten about the fans in this whole sorry episode.
                              "Hell, I'm not saying I'm an angel, but when it came to dirty tricks I couldn't hold a candle to the Irish Mafia" Jimmy Hoffa

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Mcork View Post
                                My question is what is the IRB's position on this? My understanding is they ultimately have the power to make things very difficult for the PRL/LNR to set up their own competition. They would have to sanction any cross border comp? If they don't, there would be no refs (at least those with aspirations to ref internationally). Ultimately, the IRB could set up INTL windows during the weeks put aside for this competition meaning the unions would have 1st call on their INTL players. They could even go to the extreme of making players who play in this comp. ineligible to play in IRB sanctionned tournaments. England & France would basically be left playing with championship or ProD2 selections in the 6n's.

                                I doubt it will come to that since that would probably cause a serious split but having the ability to have this very heavy handed approach would be a good weapon to have in negotiations. Some of the demands on the French/English sides are valid, particularly the 'qualification on merit'. there is no doubt that the Irish sides in particular have benefited from the Rabbo allowing them to rest INTL players on bloc at various points during the season and still having no worries about qualification. personally I would like to keep the 1 team from each 6n qualifying but I don't think it's a non negotiable. I think the presence of Italian/Scottish teams should not be a given - all teams should earn the right (Glasgow by the way are more than good enough to do that currently). It's better anyway to be in the Amlin when all you do in the HEC is give Serge Blanco cannon fodder for the famous 'fat serge group of mirth' that we have seen in the past.
                                I think we should all be clear on one thing, qualifcation criteria is a complete red herring. Performance in or outside of the HEC doesn't matter to these people. The PRL clubs have been, largely, extremely poor in European Competition since around 2006 when Munster won their first HEC. Of course the only plausible reason for this is that we, the rotton bloody Irish, were able to rest all of our key players because we had 3 guaranteed slots for the HEC. This would ignore the fact that between 2006-2013 there have always been two irish sides in the top-four of the league and there was maybe one season where 3 Irish teams would not have qualified for the HEC if it was even a top-8 qualifying from the league. Moving beyond that there would also be the respective performances of English teams against Celtalian counterparts across the past howevermany years.

                                I do think, and have said time and time again, that there must be some concessions made by the Rabo if only to further weaken the BS PRL argument of competition. I think that the HEC ought to remain as a 24 team format with a 7-7-8 split (AP, T14 Rabo). Within the Rabo each of the four Unions retains one automatic qualifier (their highest finishing team) the rest of the places are pooled and handed out on merit at the end of a league campaign.

                                The money is the main issue, the English want 1/3 of the pot and don't give a fcuk how they get it. I would imagine a compromise will be reached that could see a 30/30/40 split with the Celtalians losing a collective 10% and then we will have the inevitable fighting as to how that loss is spread across the four unions.

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