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The Future of the Heineken Cup In Doubt?

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    Originally posted by Jos View Post
    The clubs? Maybe in England but certainly not in France.
    Jos, where do you stand on the question of club versus country? Would you be concerned about the impact on the French national side if more power was conceded to the LNR by the FFR? Or is that even an issue for you?

    Just curious.

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      I don't think for a second that there wont be a European competition. The question is who will be running it - and some minor details like who gets the cash. But that issue will be determined by who runs that European. Leinster have already begun checking out what they would need to do to join one run by the Anglo-French. They know, as we all do, that without being part of a European competition theyt are in trouble. Something that wont have been missed by the Munster brains trust. Its up to the IRFU to get out there and make sure its the unions get control. If they don't then the above Munster brains trust must ensure the survival of Munster rugby - join the 'new' European rugby competition. Simple as....!!
      I find your lack of faith disturbing....

      Comment


        Originally posted by múmhan matt View Post
        I don't think for a second that there wont be a European competition. The question is who will be running it - and some minor details like who gets the cash. But that issue will be determined by who runs that European. Leinster have already begun checking out what they would need to do to join one run by the Anglo-French. They know, as we all do, that without being part of a European competition theyt are in trouble. Something that wont have been missed by the Munster brains trust. Its up to the IRFU to get out there and make sure its the unions get control. If they don't then the above Munster brains trust must ensure the survival of Munster rugby - join the 'new' European rugby competition. Simple as....!!
        But Munster and Leinster can't just go off and join a competition without the IRFUs say so. The IRFU owns them lock, stock and barrel.
        "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

        "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


        "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

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          Originally posted by at henry View Post
          Jos, where do you stand on the question of club versus country? Would you be concerned about the impact on the French national side if more power was conceded to the LNR by the FFR? Or is that even an issue for you?

          Just curious.
          Like probably all the French I love my country, but like probably all the french rugby loving I hate the FFR. (long history of shenanigans)
          So like the majority of french rugby fans, I'm on the LNR side. F... Lapasset, Camou, Lux, FFR.:_pissed__rvmp_by_ba And if it's mean less international test for France ( a crappy team anyway), I will not cry.

          Comment


            Originally posted by Jos View Post
            Like probably all the French I love my country, but like probably all the french rugby loving I hate the FFR. (long history of shenanigans)
            So like the majority of french rugby fans, I'm on the LNR side. F... Lapasset, Camou, Lux, FFR.:_pissed__rvmp_by_ba And if it's mean less international test for France ( a crappy team anyway), I will not cry.
            Thanks for that, Jos. I think I understand your position better now. Still don't agree with where you're coming from, mind... ;)

            Comment


              Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post
              But Munster and Leinster can't just go off and join a competition without the IRFUs say so. The IRFU owns them lock, stock and barrel.
              I think your weak side are the Welsh and the Italians. The Italians because the FIRA's president is on club side, and they'll certainly leave your championship(2 years max). And the Welsh because the WRU don't own the province.

              Comment


                Originally posted by Jos View Post
                Perhaps to focus on the European Cup?
                No; the change was three years back. They have Official Beer deals with Ireland and England (no, I am not making that up; the Official Beer of the English team is Guinness).
                Ceterum censeo INM irrumandum esse.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post
                  But Munster and Leinster can't just go off and join a competition without the IRFUs say so. The IRFU owns them lock, stock and barrel.
                  Yep, your right. But if its a case where the IRFU strategy was to delay and delay untill it was too late to do any thing other than tweak the last agreement, then they have failed. Im not so sure its a bluff. But that is even beside the point. If push comes to shove Munster have to do whatever has to do be done to ensure the survival of the club - and they wouldn't be alone in doing it. Dont get me wrong - I think whats happening a disaster. And I'm not suggesting for a second that Munster Leninster Ulster and Connaught split form the IRFU or anything. But if ERC lost control of the European competition, and the Anglo French set one up - I'm sure the Irish provinces wouldn't wait too long before sitting down in D4 and making the situation very clear. Hell the IFRU aint stupid - they would be more than aware of what the implications would be. We would just have to sit down and plot the best course for Irish rugby through the new reality.
                  I find your lack of faith disturbing....

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Jos View Post
                    I think your weak side are the Welsh and the Italians. The Italians because the FIRA's president is on club side, and they'll certainly leave your championship(2 years max). And the Welsh because the WRU don't own the province.
                    If the Welsh clubs break ranks, then yes, any chance of saving the HCup is gone, as T78 pointed out above.

                    Worse than that, the long-term consequences for rugby union as a sustainable professional sport in the northern hemisphere would be disastrous.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by at henry View Post
                      If the Welsh clubs break ranks, then yes, any chance of saving the HCup is gone, as T78 pointed out above.

                      Worse than that, the long-term consequences for rugby union as a sustainable professional sport in the northern hemisphere would be disastrous.
                      It would be the end of professional team's owned by Union. But probably not of the professional team's. Your teams could incorporate an other championship like Dragon Catalans in Rugby League.

                      Comment


                        My question is what is the IRB's position on this? My understanding is they ultimately have the power to make things very difficult for the PRL/LNR to set up their own competition. They would have to sanction any cross border comp? If they don't, there would be no refs (at least those with aspirations to ref internationally). Ultimately, the IRB could set up INTL windows during the weeks put aside for this competition meaning the unions would have 1st call on their INTL players. They could even go to the extreme of making players who play in this comp. ineligible to play in IRB sanctionned tournaments. England & France would basically be left playing with championship or ProD2 selections in the 6n's.

                        I doubt it will come to that since that would probably cause a serious split but having the ability to have this very heavy handed approach would be a good weapon to have in negotiations. Some of the demands on the French/English sides are valid, particularly the 'qualification on merit'. there is no doubt that the Irish sides in particular have benefited from the Rabbo allowing them to rest INTL players on bloc at various points during the season and still having no worries about qualification. personally I would like to keep the 1 team from each 6n qualifying but I don't think it's a non negotiable. I think the presence of Italian/Scottish teams should not be a given - all teams should earn the right (Glasgow by the way are more than good enough to do that currently). It's better anyway to be in the Amlin when all you do in the HEC is give Serge Blanco cannon fodder for the famous 'fat serge group of mirth' that we have seen in the past.
                        Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again (like picking Gordon D'Arcy) and expecting different results.
                        Albert Einstein

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Jos View Post
                          It would be the end of professional team's owned by Union. But probably not of the professional team's. Your teams could incorporate an other championship like Dragon Catalans in Rugby League.
                          And look at League. It used be every bit as high profile as rugby; it destroyed Wales in the '80s by pillaging them of a generation of players. Now? It's a dead game. It's died on its ass outside of the Australian underclass and the M62 corridor in Northern England.
                          Ceterum censeo INM irrumandum esse.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Mcork View Post
                            My question is what is the IRB's position on this? My understanding is they ultimately have the power to make things very difficult for the PRL/LNR to set up their own competition. They would have to sanction any cross border comp? If they don't, there would be no refs (at least those with aspirations to ref internationally). Ultimately, the IRB could set up INTL windows during the weeks put aside for this competition meaning the unions would have 1st call on their INTL players. They could even go to the extreme of making players who play in this comp. ineligible to play in IRB sanctionned tournaments. England & France would basically be left playing with championship or ProD2 selections in the 6n's.
                            And the clubs could split from the IRB ( like Rugby League).

                            Comment


                              Clubs splitting from the IRB / IRFU would be great but it ain't going to happen
                              My computer thinks I'm gay
                              What's the difference anyway
                              When all the people do all day
                              Is stare into a phone

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Jos View Post
                                And the clubs could split from the IRB ( like Rugby League).
                                You do know that the Super League governing body was re-integrated into the RFL in 2002, right? And that in 2006 a new accord between the SL clubs and the RFL was signed, which saw the clubs take responsibility for tv rights, sponsorship, etc. (the commercial side of things, basically), while the RFL took responsibility for the fixtures list, club eligibility criteria, disciplinary procedures, providing referees, etc?

                                http://www.therfl.co.uk/news/article/5830

                                In other words, the SL clubs realised -- and realised very quickly -- that they couldn't manage a functioning league without some kind of governing body.

                                So perhaps you should stop using RL as an example of the future for professional rugby union in Europe, because it's doing your argument no favours at all, for so many reasons.

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