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    #76
    Originally posted by Corcíoch View Post
    g

    Sorry but your posting nonsense to support some argument you feel the need to create here.

    No, its not capable of being twisted, spun or hyped into anything beyond what it actually is........... 2nd rate. That is a very poor argument imo.

    The B&I Cup features some of these teams. No one watches it ( relatively speaking).

    Can I say as an absolute that the money wont follow......perhaps not. But at least im applying common sense!!!!
    Haven't seen this until now and I obviously say- nonsense? Right back at ye!:)

    The English clubs are operating like developers in Ireland in 2006- '07; uber-arrogant and unreflective. Their financial foundations are built on sand and the standard of the league is very weak beyond the top 5 or 6. Overall the Rabo is stronger and more financially secure- in being supported by the unions. The RFU could do the same and reclaim their rightly influence over the clubs. Everything seems alien and ridiculous at first. The idea of a HC seemed so less than 20 years ago, so don't scoff at the concept of regional clubs. If it is possibleand there is a sufficent motivation for it, then it will happen. But TBH, I don't think it will come to that. There will be a deal- but we must be prepared to walk if it's a bad offer.

    Our clubs and league would suffer in a HC boycott, no doubt- but they'd mostly survive. The English game is built on a diet of media hype and sugar daddies. When they start to lose interest- as all such benefactors do eventually, the business plan will collapse and the overseas players depart.

    I'd make this argument anyway, but Sky's TV deal with the Rabo demonstrates that the sheen of the ZP is rubbing off.

    Comment


      #77
      One word of caution to that theory BF, don't forget the shambles that was the Celtic Warriors. Wales have tried to shoehorn clubs together to create regions with varying success. Even if the RFU were to establish 4 regional teams, for them to compete they'd need scores of millions each per annum, just to try and get parity with French sides.
      I am the million man.

      Comment


        #78
        I am a bit concerned that this is posturing by Sky to try and lull BT vision into a false sense of security.

        Comment


          #79
          Originally posted by Cowboy View Post
          One word of caution to that theory BF, don't forget the shambles that was the Celtic Warriors. Wales have tried to shoehorn clubs together to create regions with varying success. Even if the RFU were to establish 4 regional teams, for them to compete they'd need scores of millions each per annum, just to try and get parity with French sides.
          Maybe you're right on competing with the French, if you mean having big squads of huge depth, etc. But the French business model is equally precarious and dependent of overseas imports. Witness OB lock of imagination against Leinster at the weekend. However what the RFU should focus on is competing with us and the Welsh regions. Sure there may be a basket-case a la Celtic Warriors or The Borders, but that doesn't prove the model wrong.

          Comment


            #80
            Originally posted by Borderfox View Post
            Haven't seen this until now and I obviously say- nonsense? Right back at ye!:)

            The English clubs are operating like developers in Ireland in 2006- '07; uber-arrogant and unreflective. Their financial foundations are built on sand and the standard of the league is very weak beyond the top 5 or 6. Overall the Rabo is stronger and more financially secure- in being supported by the unions. The RFU could do the same and reclaim their rightly influence over the clubs. Everything seems alien and ridiculous at first. The idea of a HC seemed so less than 20 years ago, so don't scoff at the concept of regional clubs. If it is possibleand there is a sufficent motivation for it, then it will happen. But TBH, I don't think it will come to that. There will be a deal- but we must be prepared to walk if it's a bad offer.

            Our clubs and league would suffer in a HC boycott, no doubt- but they'd mostly survive. The English game is built on a diet of media hype and sugar daddies. When they start to lose interest- as all such benefactors do eventually, the business plan will collapse and the overseas players depart.

            I'd make this argument anyway, but Sky's TV deal with the Rabo demonstrates that the sheen of the ZP is rubbing off.
            So the Rabo is stronger financially that the AP . . . .


            mmmm, perhaps you should tell that to the reps of the Welsh clubs . . . .Like Stuart Gallacher.

            The Welsh regions/ clubs have been looking at leaving the Rabo and trying to join the AP.

            Why? Because, in their own words they could well do with the extra money they would gain from it to help them hold onto players leaving to go overseas in droves.

            There is more money in the AP. £125 million deal signed by BT for TV rights . . . .the Rabo doesn't attract a fraction of that kind of money. The AP has far greater revenue generation by virtue of simple economics . . . .such as a bigger market.

            Now, here is the real point;

            Even with the HEC monies Munster recorded significant losses last year.

            The lack of Qualification for the knock out stages etc will have lessened Leinsters revenue stream this year also.

            If a team like Munster cannot make a do in a year when they have HEC rugby and its money . . . . . how the hell do you reckon they could survive 2 seasons without it at all.


            They couldn't. Plain and simple.
            Last edited by Corcíoch; 3rd-May-2013, 08:06.

            Comment


              #81
              Originally posted by Corcíoch View Post
              So the Rabo is stronger financially that the AP . . . .


              mmmm, perhaps you should tell that to the reps of the Welsh clubs . . . .Like Stuart Gallacher.

              The Welsh regions/ clubs have been looking at leaving the Rabo and trying to join the AP.

              Why? Because, in their own words they could well do with the extra money they would gain from it to help them hold onto players leaving to go overseas in droves.

              There is more money in the AP. £125 million deal signed by BT for TV rights . . . .the Rabo doesn't attract a fraction of that kind of money. The AP has far greater revenue generation by virtue of simple economics . . . .such as a bigger market.

              Now, here is the real point;

              Even with the HEC monies Munster recorded significant losses last year.

              The lack of Qualification for the knock out stages etc will have lessened Leinsters revenue stream this year also.

              If a team like Munster cannot make a do in a year when they have HEC rugby and its money . . . . . how the hell do you reckon they could survive 2 seasons without it at all.


              They couldn't. Plain and simple.
              That £125m is for waaaay more than AP rights. It's for AP plus (crucially) the UK rights to whatever European competition that replaces the HEC (on the assumption that it will be defunct). The AP is not nearly as attractive to broadcasters as you make out.

              The reality is that none of the AP clubs do all that well financially. Their budgets are nothing like what some of the French have. The Welsh regions think they'll do a bit better if they join the AP but they mostly just want out from under the WRU - to the extent that they'd rather lose their big names than let the WRU centrally contract them.

              The AP clubs need to recognise that the Rabo sides are more natural allies (similar budgets, similar crowds, focused on developing their own, far less predatory) than the big French clubs, who'll simply cannibalise them in a few years if they go down the road they're on. They have delusions of grandeur but at the end of the day they simply can't afford to compete with Toulon and co.

              Comment


                #82
                Originally posted by Munsterboy View Post
                That £125m is for waaaay more than AP rights. It's for AP plus (crucially) the UK rights to whatever European competition that replaces the HEC (on the assumption that it will be defunct). The AP is not nearly as attractive to broadcasters as you make out.

                The reality is that none of the AP clubs do all that well financially. Their budgets are nothing like what some of the French have. The Welsh regions think they'll do a bit better if they join the AP but they mostly just want out from under the WRU - to the extent that they'd rather lose their big names than let the WRU centrally contract them.

                The AP clubs need to recognise that the Rabo sides are more natural allies (similar budgets, similar crowds, focused on developing their own, far less predatory) than the big French clubs, who'll simply cannibalise them in a few years if they go down the road they're on. They have delusions of grandeur but at the end of the day they simply can't afford to compete with Toulon and co.
                Im not comparing them to the French . . .the discussion was about survival without the HEC.

                The AP teams have stated that they can survive without the HEC. I believe they may well be able to ( I have no doubt the French can ) . . . . .Especially seeing as many of their teams are not in it from year to year anyway and they survive.

                We cannot. There is no doubt about that imo. As I said. Even with a Home HEC Q final last year we had a big enough loss.



                BTW,

                I never said I agree with the actions of the AP heads . . . .I agree fully with what T78 says . . . Wray etc are idiots . . .But they are very dangerous Idiots imo.
                Last edited by Corcíoch; 3rd-May-2013, 11:01.

                Comment


                  #83
                  Firstly afaik the £125m is for 4 yrs and includes europe.
                  2ndly the reason the welsh regions are looking to the AP is merely an attempt to squeeze the max amount of revenue from wru while surrendering the least amount of control. They do not want to follow the irish model. The irony is that they already are. The wru just arent picking up the bill which is why they are haemorraging players.

                  The comparison with stade by aussie dub was interesting. They may not qualify for hec having a similar season to us domestically. Not only will we qualify but we will be among top seeds. This is what they both want to change. Imo any new agreement will still see us qualify(with this seasons results) but will lose us top seeding.

                  Comment


                    #84
                    Originally posted by exiled to connacht View Post
                    Firstly afaik the £125m is for 4 yrs and includes europe.
                    2ndly the reason the welsh regions are looking to the AP is merely an attempt to squeeze the max amount of revenue from wru while surrendering the least amount of control. They do not want to follow the irish model. The irony is that they already are. The wru just arent picking up the bill which is why they are haemorraging players.

                    The comparison with stade by aussie dub was interesting. They may not qualify for hec having a similar season to us domestically. Not only will we qualify but we will be among top seeds. This is what they both want to change. Imo any new agreement will still see us qualify(with this seasons results) but will lose us top seeding.
                    No, ADHD was just having his usual pop at Munster, he scours the interwebs trying to find out any way to compare other teams to us, its an obsession.
                    As for us losing top seeding we were in the Semi finals this year, any change is likely to see us move up the seedings not down
                    My computer thinks I'm gay
                    What's the difference anyway
                    When all the people do all day
                    Is stare into a phone

                    Comment


                      #85
                      Originally posted by sewa View Post
                      No, ADHD was just having his usual pop at Munster, he scours the interwebs trying to find out any way to compare other teams to us, its an obsession.
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                      I am the million man.

                      Comment


                        #86
                        Originally posted by Corcíoch View Post
                        So the Rabo is stronger financially that the AP . . . .


                        mmmm, perhaps you should tell that to the reps of the Welsh clubs . . . .Like Stuart Gallacher.

                        The Welsh regions/ clubs have been looking at leaving the Rabo and trying to join the AP.

                        Why? Because, in their own words they could well do with the extra money they would gain from it to help them hold onto players leaving to go overseas in droves.

                        There is more money in the AP. £125 million deal signed by BT for TV rights . . . .the Rabo doesn't attract a fraction of that kind of money. The AP has far greater revenue generation by virtue of simple economics . . . .such as a bigger market.

                        Now, here is the real point;

                        Even with the HEC monies Munster recorded significant losses last year.

                        The lack of Qualification for the knock out stages etc will have lessened Leinsters revenue stream this year also.

                        If a team like Munster cannot make a do in a year when they have HEC rugby and its money . . . . . how the hell do you reckon they could survive 2 seasons without it at all.


                        They couldn't. Plain and simple.
                        I stand by my contention that the Rabo is fundamentally more financially sound than is the AP. I'm going to use an unfortunate analogy here- but the relationship of the Rabo clubs is similar to that of a central bank underwriting a commercial bank. The AP and T14 clubs don't have that lifeline. the very fact that the AP clubs are indulging in this cannibalistic and destrucive process to hover up any available revenue is proof of their vulnerability. It comes down to this- most of what they get goes to pay big salaries to players- either national or overseas. The nearest they get to a long-term startegy is in plans to extend stadiums, etc.

                        In fairness to the IRFU (and that's not easy for me to be) there is a longer term view evident in their decision making. It's a 'paternalistic' realtionship- an infuriating smug one often, but generally based on the good of the clubs, the national team and the games as a whole in the country. The Welsh clubs however have a fractious- even competitive relationship with the WRFU which is straving the regions to fund their successful national team model. It's a different strategy- I'd say in the medium-term it will unravel as the key players move abroad and become unavailable.

                        That is the Welsh union's decision- it is driving the clubs to look at other ways of raising additional revenue. The AP standard is no better than the Rabo- probably worse, but it is more attritional on players. It doesn't take much imagination to see any regional teams joining the AP taking their familiar level in that league as they had in the Rabo (for a few more bob) and gradually struggling and sinking like London-Welsh into the Championship as the pressures on players welfare hits them in the same way as it's hitting all the AP teams. In short, the Rabo is far from perfect but the T14 and AP model is unsustainable both physically and financially.

                        Comment


                          #87
                          Sewa- i dont disagree re aussie dubs normal postings. In this case he higlihted something imo by accident while attempting to make a different point.
                          Under the current seeding system our ranking will rise. Imo under any new agreement finishing 6th in the rabo will have a negative effect on our ranking. That was the point i was making.

                          Comment


                            #88
                            Maybe there are more sugar daddies in France - sugar daddies that is whose football of preference is rugby. The french league has deep deep roots and is probably sustainable regardless. But the Anglo Saxon model means that only four clubs break even - and that may be more to do with the accountants than the fans, players or management.

                            The Prem needs the finance from the RFU and the RFU needs the other unions t keep the money coming in. The Prem needs the finance from the ERC and the ERC needs the other unions. The Northern Hemisphere unions and clubs needs the rugby ecosystem to remain in balance.

                            But BT, sitting on a mountain of broadband subs cash, now needs content for subscribers and has turned heads with the money it can offer. As business people i guess it's hard to blame the premiership clubs for pushing the envelope and looking for top dollar.

                            But if they want top dollar then they have to have a european competition and whether they like it or not that means the european unions buying in.

                            If there is no deal with the English then the T14 is more likely to grow their own league than play games against the three or four English teams up to the task in a HCUP Lite, shorn of Munster, Leinster, and the rest.
                            Munster – Champions of Europe 2006, 2008, 2020.

                            Comment


                              #89
                              Originally posted by Borderfox View Post
                              I stand by my contention that the Rabo is fundamentally more financially sound than is the AP. I'm going to use an unfortunate analogy here- but the relationship of the Rabo clubs is similar to that of a central bank underwriting a commercial bank. The AP and T14 clubs don't have that lifeline. the very fact that the AP clubs are indulging in this cannibalistic and destrucive process to hover up any available revenue is proof of their vulnerability. It comes down to this- most of what they get goes to pay big salaries to players- either national or overseas. The nearest they get to a long-term startegy is in plans to extend stadiums, etc.

                              In fairness to the IRFU (and that's not easy for me to be) there is a longer term view evident in their decision making. It's a 'paternalistic' realtionship- an infuriating smug one often, but generally based on the good of the clubs, the national team and the games as a whole in the country. The Welsh clubs however have a fractious- even competitive relationship with the WRFU which is straving the regions to fund their successful national team model. It's a different strategy- I'd say in the medium-term it will unravel as the key players move abroad and become unavailable.

                              That is the Welsh union's decision- it is driving the clubs to look at other ways of raising additional revenue. The AP standard is no better than the Rabo- probably worse, but it is more attritional on players. It doesn't take much imagination to see any regional teams joining the AP taking their familiar level in that league as they had in the Rabo (for a few more bob) and gradually struggling and sinking like London-Welsh into the Championship as the pressures on players welfare hits them in the same way as it's hitting all the AP teams. In short, the Rabo is far from perfect but the T14 and AP model is unsustainable both physically and financially.
                              Which league is or is not harder on players is utterly irrelevant to this topic . . ..financial survival without the HEC.

                              Which league has a more holistic long term view isn't really relevant either.

                              Whether the Welsh clubs can compete long term in the AP is also not relevant . . . .they were referred to simply because they hinted at switching to get more money . . not less.

                              This is about survival without the HEC. Thats the topic. The AP clubs have stated they believe they can survive if the HEC talks grind to a halt and we have no HEC as we know it. I have put across the point that they may not be bluffing and may be able to survive . . . . one reason being that a certain number of their teams are never or rarely in the HEC in the first place and they survive.

                              I've seen no actual proof from anyone that they are wrong and they couldn't survive.


                              I never said for a second I prefer the AP to the Rabo, I dont in case anyone thinks I do, I think its a rubbish league . . . .but that is also not the issue being discussed.

                              There is clear evidence from the figures of the Munster Balance Sheet that Munster would not survive as they are without the money from European Rugby at HEC level, because even with it we have made losses.

                              Comment


                                #90
                                Originally posted by exiled to connacht View Post
                                Sewa- i dont disagree re aussie dubs normal postings. In this case he higlihted something imo by accident while attempting to make a different point.
                                Under the current seeding system our ranking will rise. Imo under any new agreement finishing 6th in the rabo will have a negative effect on our ranking. That was the point i was making.
                                Seeding in the HC has never depended upon league performances though. Cant see it being introduced
                                My computer thinks I'm gay
                                What's the difference anyway
                                When all the people do all day
                                Is stare into a phone

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