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The Future of the Heineken Cup In Doubt?

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    Originally posted by Cougar Moon View Post
    Looks like we'll be playing pontypridd next season. Good. Be interesting.
    You'd be sure of a warm welcome up at Sardis, any road. Much more hospitable than some of the other grounds.

    Comment


      Originally posted by hellovating View Post
      yeah, that's how i read it as well. they're still threatening with new regions.... but the thought of even less interested (and even more poorly supported) welsh teams in the pro 12, does not fill me with any joy. there is still credibility attached to the name of cardiff, even if they have tried to destroy their 100+ years of fine history over the past 10 years.
      Credibility? Cardiff is the home of the talentectomy. More money ploughed into it than anywhere else over the years, and what do they have to show for it? A trophy which made them 9th best in Europe that year. Oh, nearly forgot - losing finalists in the first HEC. Consisting of 12 teams, in which they had to play four matches in total...
      Last edited by Cwmscwtch; 31st-December-2013, 20:14.

      Comment


        Originally posted by Cwmscwtch View Post
        Credibility? Cardiff is the home of the talentectomy. More money ploughed into it than anywhere else over the years, and what do they have to show for it? A trophy which made them 9th best in Europe that year. Oh, nearly forgot - losing finalists in the first HEC. Consisting of 12 teams, in which they had to play four matches in total...
        And even that wasn't The Blues
        "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

        "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


        "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

        Comment


          Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post
          I don't think there's a legal barrier as such, but the IRB would have to rubber stamp their participation.

          You're right that it's a horror show though. The PRL have lot the touch paper and retired to a safe distance.
          Well the WRU ain't going to ratify any competition for the regions as per their statement,so the IRB are now involved either way,thank feck.

          Comment


            You have to assume that RFU can't either given wrus stated position.

            Where does this leave Cardiff, Newport, llanelli , Neath and Swansea RFCs and their participation in welsh premiership?

            Comment


              i have the law trumping the wru/irb if it goes to court.

              much more likely that a full european cup would end the prl's interest in the welsh regions, with their bt money requirements met. the rfu must be under serious pressure from non prl clubs, especially with talk of non relegation slots for at least 3 of the welsh sides for a number of years.

              not sure a month is enough time to agree on a full european cup though. if i was he irfu, i'd get cracking on sorting it out.

              Comment


                Originally posted by hellovating View Post
                i have the law trumping the wru/irb if it goes to court.

                much more likely that a full european cup would end the prl's interest in the welsh regions, with their bt money requirements met. the rfu must be under serious pressure from non prl clubs, especially with talk of non relegation slots for at least 3 of the welsh sides for a number of years.

                not sure a month is enough time to agree on a full european cup though. if i was he irfu, i'd get cracking on sorting it out.
                What law though? The IRB is union. Go without their say so and you're no longer playing rugby union.

                There's nothing to stop the PRL and RRW playing each other. They just won't be able to do it in a union ratified competition.
                "We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven into an age of unreason if we dig deep into our history and remember we are not descended from fearful men" Edward R Murrow

                "Little by little, we have been brought into the present condition in which we are able neither to tolerate the evils from which we suffer, nor the remedies we need to cure them." - Livy


                "I think that progress has been made by two flames that have always been burning in the human heart. The flame of anger against injustice and the flame of hope that you can build a better world" - Tony Benn

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Balla Boy View Post
                  What law though? The IRB is union. Go without their say so and you're no longer playing rugby union.

                  There's nothing to stop the PRL and RRW playing each other. They just won't be able to do it in a union ratified competition.
                  i honestly think it's not that simple, balla boy. if a judge tells them that any removal of status or membership is illegal, then they won't have much choice. the irb have allowed an argentine development side play in the vodacom comp in south africa.

                  i think the newport fc case is relevant for the wru trying to stop the move. and i think the irb might say, if you can't stop them, we won't.

                  at this stage, the chance of it going to court, must be odds on.

                  again, there is a chance the regions are just holding out for lots more money. their fans might never forgive them if they accepted that though.

                  Comment


                    Phuq the whole bloody lot of them. I'm sick to the back teeth of reading about the prl and their grand plans. I hope it all comes tumbling down when they won't get IRB approval. Now Happy new year to all.
                    Cowardice lasts longer than Pain

                    Comment


                      Hellovating- the case you are referring to( Newport fc) was examined here a few weeks ago. Its the exact opposite of what regions are trying to do now. In that case Newport were playing in English league system due to there being no senior league in Wales and were doing so with welsh fas permission. Fifa threatened wfa seat on board so wfa set up the welsh premier league to avoid this and withdrew permission for Newport to play in English system and insisted they play in welsh league. Newport won on grounds that their business was established and trading in English system before welsh one was created and should be allowed to continue to do so. The regions have traded in the pro12 since they were established. They want to leave the league they established their business in to trade in another jurisdiction.
                      The pumas play in vodacom cup with permission of both unions AFAIK.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by exiled to connacht View Post
                        Hellovating- the case you are referring to( Newport fc) was examined here a few weeks ago. Its the exact opposite of what regions are trying to do now. In that case Newport were playing in English league system due to there being no senior league in Wales and were doing so with welsh fas permission. Fifa threatened wfa seat on board so wfa set up the welsh premier league to avoid this and withdrew permission for Newport to play in English system and insisted they play in welsh league. Newport won on grounds that their business was established and trading in English system before welsh one was created and should be allowed to continue to do so. The regions have traded in the pro12 since they were established. They want to leave the league they established their business in to trade in another jurisdiction.
                        The pumas play in vodacom cup with permission of both unions AFAIK.
                        Correct. Newport FC - like Cardiff, Swansea, Wrexham and a couple of others - essentially have 'squatter's rights' in the English league system. The Welsh FA doesn't have the power to tell them what to do or where they can play, even though under FIFA/UEFA rules they do have governorship over the territory of Wales.

                        It's a similar case in Ireland, where Derry City were granted an exemption by the North's FA, the IFA, to enter the FAI's league system. If the IFA came out tomorrow and demanded that Derry either return to their league system or play their games in Letterkenny, they'd be politely told to F off.

                        There's no precedent ever established for a club on the territory of one association/union, unilaterally deciding they want to play in another association/union's league without permission from their parent association/union, especially when they've been offered a place in their own league already.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by exiled to connacht View Post
                          Hellovating- the case you are referring to( Newport fc) was examined here a few weeks ago. Its the exact opposite of what regions are trying to do now. In that case Newport were playing in English league system due to there being no senior league in Wales and were doing so with welsh fas permission. Fifa threatened wfa seat on board so wfa set up the welsh premier league to avoid this and withdrew permission for Newport to play in English system and insisted they play in welsh league. Newport won on grounds that their business was established and trading in English system before welsh one was created and should be allowed to continue to do so. The regions have traded in the pro12 since they were established. They want to leave the league they established their business in to trade in another jurisdiction.
                          The pumas play in vodacom cup with permission of both unions AFAIK.
                          cheers exiled. good to get some flesh on the bones.

                          i wouldn't call it the exact opposite though. it was a welsh club wanting to play in the english system, against the wished of the ruling body in wales. there are parallels. though maybe not in how the case was won. the welsh clubs were playing english clubs long before the advent of the celtic league and the creation of the regions though. maybe the blues couldn't play in the aviva under that rule, but cardiff maybe could?

                          that's correct about the pumas in the vodacom cup. i'm sure a judge will ask why it was allowed in one case and not in another. well, he/she will at least ask why it's not allowed? is there a good answer for this? why should the wru not allow the 4 welsh regions play in the aviva? especially in the absence of any wru/regions legal agreement.

                          to be honest, if it was a complete non-runner, the idea would be dead in the water. i think anything is possible.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by hellovating View Post
                            cheers exiled. good to get some flesh on the bones.

                            i wouldn't call it the exact opposite though. it was a welsh club wanting to play in the english system, against the wished of the ruling body in wales. there are parallels. though maybe not in how the case was won. the welsh clubs were playing english clubs long before the advent of the celtic league and the creation of the regions though. maybe the blues couldn't play in the aviva under that rule, but cardiff maybe could?
                            As far as I know, Cardiff never competed in an English or Anglo-Welsh league, and even if they did, they haven't for a long, unbroken period of time by their own volition. They can't expect the same treatment as a football club who have played in the English league system since the beginning.

                            that's correct about the pumas in the vodacom cup. i'm sure a judge will ask why it was allowed in one case and not in another. well, he/she will at least ask why it's not allowed? is there a good answer for this? why should the wru not allow the 4 welsh regions play in the aviva? especially in the absence of any wru/regions legal agreement.

                            to be honest, if it was a complete non-runner, the idea would be dead in the water. i think anything is possible.
                            I'm sure a judge would ask that and he'd be given a very good answer - the Argentinian RU wanted to enter a team in the SA competition, whereas the WRU have a competition of their own already and don't want to enter their teams in a foreign league.

                            As for the idea being dead in the water... it hasn't been tried in court because it's a non-runner. It's a high-stakes negotiating tactic.

                            Comment


                              as the legal agreement between the 4 regions and the wru ends in june and will (as of today) not be renewed, are the 4 really still the wru's teams? i have no idea as to the legal position of the 4 regions under the wru without the participation agreement. if it was stacked in the wru's favour there would be no need for the legally binding contract.

                              also, remember, the wru have already sanctioned an anglo welsh tournament recently. why then and not now?

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by whimpersnap View Post
                                As for the idea being dead in the water... it hasn't been tried in court because it's a non-runner. It's a high-stakes negotiating tactic.
                                if it was a non credible negotiating contract, it would be similarly dead in the water.

                                Comment

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